My Experience Developing a Willing Heart as a Betrayed Spouse w/ Allison T

Allison T and her husband thought his pornography addiction would get better once they were married. She spent many years in a support role to her husband before she realized she had betrayal trauma. She explains how a willing heart came gradually as she recognized she had her own recovery work, separate from her husbands'.  Allison shares how the SAL12 step program differs from other programs and how recovery work continues to better her life and marriage.

To register for our conference on September 9th, click here.

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Allison T: Developing a Willing Heart as a Betrayed Spouse

[00:00:00] 

Justin B: Hey, this is Justin B. Before we get started on this conversation that I'm going to have with Alison T about developing a willing heart as a betrayed spouse, I just want to make you aware of the upcoming SA Lifeline Foundation Conference - “Come Heal With Us, a community focus on recovery from the effects of pornography, sexual addiction, and betrayal trauma.”

It will be held September 9th, 2023 in Sandy, Utah. You can go live if you're in the area or if you're going to  be traveling to the area. Or you can also register and attend over Zoom virtually, either way it's a very affordable registration to get in. 

You can get four CEUs for attending if you are a therapist. It’s also for individuals or a couple. So the place you go to register is at www.salifeline.org/events and you can register there. I hope to see you there. I will be there, Tara will be there and we're excited to have this happen.

Come heal with us.

 [00:01:00] Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery podcast. My name is Justin. B I am a gratefully recovered sex addict, living in the miracle of recovery, and grateful to have with me today, Alison T. Today we will be talking a little bit about developing a Willing Heart as a betrayed spouse. We’ll be talking a little bit about the recovery puzzle and especially the willing heart piece of that puzzle in the SAL and SA lifeline [00:02:00] materials. Allison, why don't you take a few minutes, introduce yourself and tell us why you and I are talking here today. What brought you to this point? 

Allison T: Yeah. So I'm Allison. What brought me here today really was a spouse with a pornography addiction. And we really thought as many did when we were engaged, we thought being married would fix that.

And now being 12 years down the road, we of course know that's not the case. And so we went to meetings fairly early on. But I didn't like them. I didn't do well. I didn't really work the program. I didn't make any phone calls. And in the program we were in, we shared a manual.

So I had the same manual as my spouse and I just kept saying, “Well, I'm not an addict.” Like this is not me. And so, fast forward maybe another five or seven years. And a friend brought me to [00:03:00] Rhyll's Barn for an S-Anon meeting there, and things just felt different. I could see that people were making connections, people knew each other outside of their meeting.

And I went into a newcomer meeting with Rhyll and just felt her strength, feeling the strength of someone who was there, who knew and who had been through the program. Because in my other group, no one knew what they were doing.

Justin B: You mentioned Rhyll and Rhyll is Rhyll Croshaw who is one of the founders of the SA Lifeline foundation. So I just wanted to put that out there for those who may be wondering who is this Rhyll person. All right. Go ahead and continue.

Allison T: Yes, and I believe at the time this was, these were still S Anon meetings and later they put together their own SAL12 step meetings, which I have been able to enjoy now. 

Even then, I still stepped away from meetings. So I've only been going to meetings, I would say, consistently every week for the [00:04:00] past two or three years. And really that's what we're going to  talk about today. It's the change of my willing heart and my willingness to really work recovery for myself.

Because back then I was really just going because I wanted my husband to change. And that's  really what's made the difference. So I'm happy to talk about that now, or we can talk about that later. But that's what brought me here today to these meetings. 

Justin B: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And we will get into, you know, your willing heart, the changes of your heart, how that has affected maybe your marriage, but most importantly, you and your own relationship and focus on God and the ability to handle whatever's going on around you. 

So thank you for sharing a little bit about that, Allison. As you shared, it sounds like this was kind of your take initially - you know, and I hear this a lot; “It's his problem. It's not mine. I don't need to, and I don't want to do anything about it. I just, he needs to get [00:05:00] fixed.”

So tell me a little bit about your perspective on that, your experience and how that started out and maybe how it's changing and we'll get to how it's changed in a little bit.

Allison T: So that started out as me trying to help fix the problem, mainly getting on his team and saying, “Well, try this, or maybe if we put on this filter or get rid of this device,” and “Why don't you tell me about it every day and tell me how you're doing and I'll tell you what you should do.” And that didn't work.

It just didn't. And so eventually, what changed my attitude was therapy. I think because I stayed in that space of really trying to stay connected and trying to make him safe so I could be connected. And then going to therapy, and this was three years ago about when we started doing therapy, and then she encouraged me to go to 12 Step. My therapist did. 

I remember sitting. [00:06:00] before a therapy session and talking to my husband and saying something to the effect of, “Well, I'm just kind of waiting for you to get better. Like, that's my job.” And now I can't even imagine ever saying that. And so therapy really made a difference there.

And I think the SAL Lifeline material, talking about betrayal trauma, it helped me too because it helped me see, “I'm not just trying to let go of his thing.” I actually have my own thing that I am recovering from and working on instead of just trying to not work on him. 

Justin B: Thank you for sharing that. One of the things that is fairly unique about SAL is this concept of betrayal trauma of the spouse of a sex addict. Tell me what your initial take on when you were told, “Hey, you might be suffering, You may have betrayal trauma here,” and what your thoughts were then and how that kind of developed. 

Allison T: Yeah. So a few [00:07:00] years ago, I probably would've said, “Well, that sounds kind of extreme. That's, you know, I'm not a drama queen. I'm not betrayed. It's not a huge deal. It's just a problem he has.” I don't know if I would say I had any type of PTSD symptoms like they say in our readings. However, I did a questionnaire, I think both online with Kevin Skinner with ADO Recovery. They had a free questionnaire and I did that and that shed some light on some aspects that I maybe hadn't considered - that you can have trauma without going to war or without having some serious abuse or childhood trauma or loss of a loved one. You can have trauma even within a marriage and with pornography addiction.

And then I did another similar questionnaire with my therapist, and so that was, once again, another just affirming experience where [00:08:00] they said, “Yeah, based on your questionnaire, it looks like you've got some level of betrayal trauma.” 

Justin B: And it sounds like you initially thought, “Oh, trauma that's just for, you know, situations where I experienced physical abuse or some severe emotional trial or witnessed something that was sincerely tragic.”

But as you have gone through this, does your experience make you minimize what trauma means, or maybe have even more compassion for that? 

Allison T: Oh, I think once I discovered, once I made that connection, it was hugely validating, like a piece of my life just made sense.

Then, when I was shaking and crying and I couldn't explain why, I could say, “Oh, this is trauma.” This isn't craziness, because when you're in that space and you're feeling crazy and everyone else either doesn't know what you're experiencing or [00:09:00] isn't an addict, isn't in an emotional state really to validate and say, “Oh, it makes so much sense that you're shaking and crying. You feel crazy.” 

And you kind of need someone there or, or some type of experience to say, ah, , this is your body reacting in a normal way. So I would say once I got over that worry of feeling like I'm being so dramatic or emotional, being able to label it as trauma was really, really helpful.

And with sponsees and other people in the program too, I have seen that that helps make sense of their life and their experiences and their reactions. Not to say they want to stay in that trauma but to name it helps us do something about it.

Justin B: I think I want to step into that here real quick before we start diving deeper in the willing heart. I want to talk a little bit about that. You mentioned sponsees, so you're sponsoring other women, other people who are experiencing these same things. And you're helping [00:10:00] walk them through, to put their arm in the arm of their higher power. But how does that help you in your own recognition of your own trauma, your own healing, and how does that help you by walking with others in the similar process? 

Allison T: It helps a lot. I'll give an example. Like just talking about recovery puts me in a recovery place. Like a few months ago I was putting my kids to bed. I have four young kids and I just had it.

One said, “Hey, mom, can we play a game?” And I said, “No, I just need to be away from you.” And I got a call from a sponsee and we talked for a little bit, and I didn't necessarily talk about any of my own issues, but after getting off that call, I was in a totally different place and was able to go talk to that child and say, “Hey, I'd love to do something with you. Now I'm feeling way better.”

And so there have been many instances like that. But then also another thing I try to do with sponsees is to think of a time where I've [00:11:00] felt in a similar way to whatever they're feeling. And as I'm able to talk through that and share my past experiences and say, “Hey, I felt similarly triggered at this time. And here's what I did, or here's what I wish I would've done.”

It helps me to really process things, but then also when I'm in a similar situation, it's just in my head. I know what the recovery response would be because I've been talking about it. 

Justin B: Thank you for sharing that. And I think this dives right into the willing heart. So you worked the steps of recovery for yourself, the 12 steps, including, you know, the step four, the big scary one, steps eight and nine for yourself while your husband is the one that's the addict.

What kind of change of heart had to happen there in order to make you willing to go through that whole difficult process?

Allison T: Yeah, it's got to be gradual because really it seems like a big step to say, “I don't have a problem. You have a problem.” and then [00:12:00] eventually to get to the point where you're saying, “Okay, now I'm going to go look at all my problems and stop looking at your problems.”

And that's really what step four and five and six are, examining ourselves - both the good and the bad and then bringing that to God. And so what I've experienced and what I've witnessed with others is that it's gradual. 

Like I get the willingness to go to a meeting and that was kind of hard when I was talking to my therapist. I said, “I'm really busy. I'd rather do something else on my evenings. I would rather go and recreate. I don't want to go talk about this.” And I still went. And so that was my first step,  just being willing to go. I don't know if you ever talk about this in other meetings, but sometimes we'll talk about like step zero and we'll frame it as just going to the meetings, just showing up. And then there's like a step half, where you're buying the materials and maybe you're going to put yourself on the phone list and reach out to people.

So I would say,[00:13:00] having been already twice, I was a little more willing to jump in this time and get the materials and get the phone list and reach out to people. In fact, I think I was able to reach out to people that very day and that really propelled my progress forward in the program. And I think for me, seeing progress developed more of a willing heart in me because I saw the program start to work. 

Justin B: Thank you for sharing that. And I love the concept of step zero, going to a meeting, step half, I'll get the materials and bring them to the meeting, maybe read along and give my phone number as a potential contact.

That's beautiful. I love that. One of the things that I want to read, and this is from the SAL book, this is from page 86, it's the first paragraph of the section entitled, Willing Heart. And in previous SAL Lifeline Pathway to Recovery podcasts, we've talked a little bit about the recovery puzzle. And if you have questions about the [00:14:00] recovery puzzle, you can go to the salifeline.org website and look at that. 

Here's this first paragraph: “The recovery puzzle revolves around a willing heart. With a willing heart we choose to put God at our center. A willing heart represents our sincere desire to do or give up whatever it takes to find recovery. Such deep humility is the essential starting point for addicts and betrayed partners alike. Without it, there is no recovery. With it, there is hope for even the most desperate situation. Often a willing heart emerges through a rock bottom experience. It's the silver lining in what appears to, at first to be a disastrously dark cloud. Disaster can give rise to the gift that humbles us and facilitates our arrival at step one, acknowledging our powerlessness over sexual addiction or betrayal trauma.”

So, Alison, as I read through that, what were a couple of thoughts that jumped out at you that maybe resonate with your own experiences? Is there something in there that you'd like to [00:15:00] develop on a little bit in describing a willing heart for you? 

Allison T: Sure. I do think I have experienced feeling, not necessarily a rock bottom experience, but feeling molded by my experiences to bring about that willing heart.

You know, I've already talked about how I went to multiple meetings and went in and out. But there were a couple experiences. I just experienced some extreme emotional fatigue that was kind of my rock bottom where I just said, “I, I can't keep doing this. Nothing's really hugely changed. I'm just tired.”

And so that was my experience. And we had been students for a long time, so finally we had the funds to go and to get therapy. And for me it was a rock bottom experience, but then it was immediately followed with a silver lining, a really light experience. Because I was emotional, I was in tears and I was calling therapists and there was one [00:16:00] therapist that I found on their website and I just clicked the call button.

I expected to get an office, but I got the actual therapist. They were like, “I'm sorry, I'm taking care of a sick child right now. But tell me your story.” And so this person just listened to my story for 10 minutes and then said, “Well, I'm full, but I think I'd really recommend you go with this other therapist that I've been training. That therapist ended up being covered by our insurance. And so if you've been to therapy, you know that that is really huge to experience a drastically reduced copay. So that to me, as we were reading, that's just what I thought of, like this rock bottom experience. But also, I really witnessed God pulling me into recovery, pulling me into therapy and saying, “You need this and here's what we're going to do. Let's do this.  

Justin B: Yeah, thank you. And you know, sometimes when we hear the word or the phrase “rock bottom,” we think that disaster has [00:17:00] happened. There's the worst possible scenario, but I've learned that, you know, people that I work with, their rock bottoms can be higher than mine or they could be way lower than mine.

They can be anywhere. It's where a person decides. Like what you said - “I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. I can't do this anymore. There has to be a solution. And all the work that I've done on myself obviously is not that solution.”

Before you went into therapy, before you started in the 12 step rooms, you said that you had tried a few things like you'd gone to a previous 12 step type group with your spouse using the same manual. You'd done some filters, you'd done some different strategies. What are some of the things that you thought were like silver bullets that turned out to not be silver bullets in, in yours and his recovery?

Allison T: That's a good question. The first thing that comes to mind is filters. We thought that would fix everything and I think there are a lot of good systems [00:18:00] out there, but the truth is when you have a broken brain, you can get around any kind of filter. And so that we have found is more of an aid and something to support. But on its own it's not enough is what we found. 

I guess, I don't know if I ever thought anything really was a silver bullet, but I tried a lot of things. Like I tried talking through it a lot with my husband and then occasionally with other people. And my experience with that has been that while talking and communicating is beneficial, I can't solve his problems and he really can't solve mine. And I think that was our problem at first, that we just thought, well, you know, we're newlyweds. We figure out a lot of things together. We're going to  figure out this together.

And I love being on a team, like we're really good friends, but this is something where we have to each just row our own boat, like [00:19:00] Rhyll says in her book.

Justin B: Man, that is the codependence nightmare - to allow someone else to row their own boat. I remember early on in my wife's recovery, now a little bit of my backstory, I think I've shared it in a previous episode, is that my wife started in her recovery eight years before I was willing to set foot in a room of recovery and do anything other than try harder, pray harder, read harder, do all these other things harder. Because there's no way I wanted my face anywhere, you know? And some of the first things that she shared with me were, “I wish I could just put you in my pocket and protect you and keep you safe from all this other stuff.”

And not that she was trying to control and manipulate from a bad place, but she really wanted the work that she's doing, she wanted that to be enough to help me too. What are your thoughts on that, and how does that work? As you said, “Hey, he's got to row his own boat and I've got to row my own boat.”

Allison T: Yeah, so also really quick, as you mentioned [00:20:00] you're talking about religion, and doing all of your daily things. Our religious leaders, that was their solution. The silver bullet of, you know, read the Bible and just pray and think good thoughts.

And so that was another thing that we found. I still go to church and I believe it's very good to do those things. But our experience was [that it is] not a magic cure for either of these issues. Anyway, so talking about the protection, I have resonated with that. Especially when you find yourself thriving in a program. 

My husband actually does go to a 12 step meeting. And so I will find myself sometimes saying, “Well, you know, here's what I learned in my meeting and here's what I'm going to do. And maybe you should or maybe you should try this.” And the last few years [I] have gotten much better at just saying, “Here's what I'm going to do.”

And sometimes [00:21:00] we'll inspire each other to do similar things. If he's really good at making a phone call, I might say, “Oh, I see him making a phone call. I should do that too.” Or if I am doing my dailies at night. We just went on a camping trip and I did my dailies, and he said something a few days into it, like, “I've noticed you doing that. I'm going to  do that too. 

And that, for me, has been much healthier than suggesting maybe indirectly and expecting - just honestly doing my best and, and letting that example lead. 

Justin B: Hmm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that because it was, for me, it was those seven or eight years of my wife doing those types of things and me seeing it and her and I talking about it. After a couple of years, she stopped saying, “You really need to go do meetings,” or, you know, “You're a mess.”

She was just kinda like, “Well, I can't control him. What he's going to do is what he's going to do. Eventually, hopefully he'll come around.” And gratefully I hit my rock bottom at a point that [00:22:00] I said, “Well, enough is enough. I've got to change something because this isn't going to work.”

As you have developed this willing heart as a betrayed spouse, as you have had these experiences and your heart has changed through this time, how have you been able to keep that line of you know, codependency or you know, wanting to drag your spouse along with you. How have you kept that as clean as possible, recognizing that nobody's perfect? 

Allison T: Yeah, I think it's a balance. I was just talking to a sponsee about this yesterday because I think sometimes it's okay to say, “I'm concerned about this.” You know, “How are you doing?” Or “Here's a boundary I have based on something you are doing.”

So I think how I say things is important to me. If I speak from really have[ing] no expectations necessarily. I might make a recommendation or just say, I feel whatever. And a lot of the [00:23:00] time it is concern. “I feel concerned about this” or “I feel, you know, maybe fearful about this.”

Part of my recovery has been that I am using my voice and trying to speak up and be honest. And so I'm not so removed that I can never say what I think about our relationship and how we're doing. But I do try to make sure my boundaries and my words are about me and how I feel, and then to let him choose whatever he would like to do about that.

And this just came to my mind. As I mentioned, we were camping and, and Rhyll talks a lot about rowing her own boat. But we had this experience where we went in this lava tube, like a cave, and it was a third of a mile long, so it was fairly long and dark. And we had mostly enough headlamps, but not quite enough headlamps. And so some of us had to share. 

And for me, when I found recovery, it was like turning on my own headlamp. [00:24:00] Like I used to just want to be so connected about my husband and so I'd say, “Well, let's make sure you're doing well so we can just be together all the time.” And he would love to have hobbies and I'd say, “Well, I just want to be with you.”

And so I really just think I was like, we're going to have one headlamp and we're going to go through right next to each other. But you need some space, especially when we’re in the dark, in a cave. You kind of want to walk on your own, you don't want to have your arms linked. And so really that was what it was like for me to say like, “I'm going to turn on my own light.”

And sometimes we're right next to each other and we're overlapping and we're both doing really well, and it's just really light. And then sometimes one of us isn't doing as well, and we say, all right, like “You go with your light. I'll go with mine. I think we'll meet up sometime soon.” 

Justin B: I love that example. I've also been in a lava tube like that and where we went, to the very back and everybody turned off their lights and it was pitch dark. And I want to [00:25:00] talk a little bit about this because part of recovery is working our 12 steps and sharing this message with others and practicing these principles, giving back and helping with our light to help others.

How are you able to do that? Let your light shine and be a beacon, I guess, without saying, “Hey, you have to do it this way.” 

Allison T: Well, the first thing I think of is, I think it's an Al-Anon slogan. That's where I heard it. It could be from another 12 step group, but it's - “Llet it begin with me.”

And I love that phrase because I find there is actually a lot I can do. I was reading recently, I read the Bible and there's a section called “Ask and You Shall Receive.” And I was contemplating that and thinking, you know, praying and saying, you know what, it's not such a bad thing to really want a home filled with light. And pornography addiction sometimes takes away the light out of the home.

And I [00:26:00] was praying to God and just thinking like, “Why can't I have this? If I ask for this? Isn't this a good thing to ask for? This is what I really want.” And the impression that came to me, the thought that came to me was, “Well, if you want a home filled with light, do things that fill your home with light.”

I realize there are a lot of things I do that do not - maybe it's sarcasm or like stress or high expectations or other things like that. So there are things I do every day that I think detract from that feeling of peace and light in my home. And so now I'm at a point where rather than turning to other people and saying, “Look, you gotta make this home a place filled with light,” I'm instead turning to myself.

And I'm not running out of things that I can do there in terms of filling my life and home and the lives of other people with light. So that's one way. And then of course[00:27:00] working the program changes my relationships. I am trying to be more honest and more authentic with everyone in my life.

But I am most able to do that with people in group. As I talk to them and tell them my honest story and hear their honest story, I think there's a lot of light in that, even just in listening and sharing and being vulnerable, and then turning people really to God. 

Because in other circumstances if I go to a friend and say, “Hey, man, this thing has been really hard.” I think a good friend would say, “Yeah, that sounds really hard, man, I'm so sorry.”

But in group, we do get that. They say, “Oh, that makes sense. You know, I think you're in trauma.” And then, “Have you considered turning to God or surrendering?” And so I think that's just for me, an experience that fills me with light every time.

Justin B: And I've got a couple of thoughts from, based on what you just shared there. You mentioned that you felt the answer when [00:28:00] you said, “Hey, I want my house filled with light” and the answer was, “Well, what are you doing that's maybe taking away from light?” Or what are you doing that isn't bringing as much light into the house as could be brought in?

What is one of the positive actions you are taking? Or changes that you have had to be willing to make in order to bring light on your own into the house, whether or not anybody else is carrying that light.

Allison T: So some things that occurred to me right then were like, “What are you listening to? What kinds of music, what kinds of podcasts?” And then “What routines are you neglecting?” And for me it was routines with my kids and my daily routines, whether it's my gospel study or my step study.

And I try to do some prayer and gospel study with my kids each day and that is  something I am not always good at. It's at bedtime and I'm like, “Ah, I'm just too tired. Go to bed.” And so those were the immediate things that came to me of things that I can do to increase the [00:29:00] light in my life.

Justin B: Thank you for sharing those. For me, if I had the prompting to say, “Hey, I need you to stop,” I don't know, “listening to certain podcasts, listening to certain types of music,” and for me that might be hard.  And at night, “Hey, I haven't sat down and had prayers and scriptures or whatever with my kids. I'm tired. It's hard.”

One of the lines in the full version of the Serenity Prayer that we use in SAL is accepting hardship as the pathway to peace. Tell me a little bit about what your thoughts are on that phrase and how this might apply to a willing heart. 

Allison T: Yeah, because in the book, they are actually right next to each other, and I was contemplating that there's a section on the willing heart, and then within that there's a subsection about accepting pain as the pathway to progress.

And there's actually a section in there that I'd like to read, if that's okay. It says, [00:30:00] “We come to recovery to find healing and soon learn that applying the principles of the recovery puzzle means consciously digging into the pain we have unconsciously been running from.” And that's in the second paragraph of that section.

So I resonated a lot with this section because I didn't want to go talk about this. I didn't want to go talk to other ladies, and I felt depressed every time I had to talk about it. And so there is something about it, that healing is not easy. It's much easier in the moment to simply pretend, especially with emotional pain.

I think it's sometimes simpler when you can just pretend it's not there, to go and keep busy, especially if you're like me and you have four kids. I tended to just keep busy and I found myself at the end of the day crying and I said, “What is going on?”

And so recovery work for me has [00:31:00] not only been uncomfortable because as I did my step work, I realized I was kind of dishonest. That was one of the things that came out of my fourth step inventory. So I thought, “Well, I'm just going to  be more honest.” And that's not painless. Sometimes when you're honest, people don't like what you think, they don't agree with you. And so I have dealt with some fears that I've overcome with being honest.

And so that's maybe a level of pain that I didn't want to face. But then also just facing feelings. It has been painful and journaling, I often find when I journal, when I talk about things more sometimes it feels stronger. And at first I definitely feel more of what I'm writing than if I hadn't thought about it at all.

But every time after I consciously dig into that, as they said, I make it intentional and I do it in ways that are healthy, like talking to members of group and journaling, I have found [00:32:00] that that pain eventually does get healed. 

Justin B: Thank you for sharing that. And I'm speaking on my side as an addict in recovery, but let me know if this, if this pertains to you.

You know, when I was in active addiction, I saw it, to not feel anything. Not good, not bad. I sought to find stasis and just numb. I sought to feel numb because any variation from numb, whether up or down, was too painful, because I didn't like to feel, it just wasn't fun. So I had to numb it out using my addictive practices.

Does anything like that seem to resonate with what you've experienced in your own thing trying to keep those emotions away? 

Allison T: Yes, definitely. And I connect more with these readings that we read every week in our SAL meetings now from our SAL book because I think some of the SAL literature is [00:33:00] still true for very many people.

But it wasn't true for me that I went to alcohol or drugs or other really severe, I guess I would say more severe in my religion and practices. I went to things that maybe felt less severe, but were still really unhealthy for me. Really just  keeping busy, as I mentioned before, just immersing myself in other good things, but total avoidance.

So I'll still find myself doing it in smaller ways. So one was busyness, another one was just trying to control the addict. And now I'll find myself just trying to numb with social media or an audio book, just something where I don't have to think at all. And so actually one thing my therapist encouraged me to work on and I found really helpful is I have a list of things that I can do when I'm feeling off.

And I've got some that are just like numbing that aren't terrible but aren't really good. And [00:34:00] then, I've also got a list of things that are actually helpful and some that are really not helpful. Like playing detective for me is not healthy, and sometimes when I'm feeling triggered, that's where I want to go.

And so actually what I'll do is sometimes when I want to numb, maybe I will start with something like an audiobook for a bit. If I'm really feeling like I can't handle this. And then I'll go eventually to something that's more healthy. Like, maybe I'll go on a walk or I'll call someone. I mean, really, that's the best response, right? Or I'll journal. But I definitely resonate with the desire to numb just in different ways. 

Justin B: Yeah. You know, I was having a conversation with somebody for a different podcast that I do yesterday. One of the things that she said, and she was talking about this very topic about numbing out, about trying to avoid painful situations, and she said, “I learned that if life is easy, if I'm comfortable, I'm doing something wrong. But if I am uncomfortable, if I'm [00:35:00] growing and that growth pain is there, then I'm likely doing it right. I'm likely on the right path.”

And having to stay in that discomfort and sit in the emotion, sit in the pain for a little bit. You know, one of the strategies she talked about was that she would set a timer for 10 minutes and just sit in that pain, sit in that emotion, whether it's pain, whether it's joy, and give herself permission to sit there. And then when the timer went off, if she was good to go, it's time to get up and go.

Does that trigger any thoughts or insights that you have? 

Allison T: I love that idea. I haven't actually done that and set a timer. But I have had even recent experiences where as I'm learning to be more honest, having hard conversations, sitting in a hard conversation is hard. Like I told someone that I felt hurt by what they did, and I was in the car with that person, so I couldn't get out. We were stuck in the car [00:36:00] and that person said something like, “Oh, well I hope you feel better. I hope you get more comfortable.”

And I was like, “That does not make me more comfortable. I wanted you to say I'm sorry,” and now I was in this place of like, “Well, now you've said something and now everything's worse. You should have not said anything.”

And I realized this is really painful. I do not like this at all. But the interesting thing is, and I've found this to happen multiple times in the past few years as I've learned to speak up. Even if it's painful to speak up and as long as I'm prayerful about it, do what I feel is right, eventually that pain passes and in the end, I still feel better for saying something and having that hard conversation. But yeah, it's painful

Justin B: Yeah. And that reminds me of one of these stories in the SAL book, and it's in the same section on page 91. And I'm going to  read this story. It's only two paragraphs and I'm going to do that and then I'd like to get your take on this. [00:37:00] As I read through this it really resonated with me. So here it is. 

“I once called my sponsor to surrender something very painful, and as we talked, she said that she could feel me leaning into the pain. This phrase really stuck with me and continues to help me on my recovery journey. To me, leaning into the pain means not denying it, not running from it, and not filling my life with so many things to avoid feeling hurt,” you know, getting busy, what you talked about there.

“It also means I am feeling the emotion that is present. I picture such pain as a thin wall of ice across my path. In the past, I would bump against this wall, and because it was cold and uninviting, I'd choose a different path, usually a less healthy path. But now I am learning that when I lean into that cold, icy wall of pain, it will give way.

Of course it's uncomfortable, and when I lean against it, of course it smarts. When the wall breaks, it creates shards of ice that can cut. But when the ice shatters, the [00:38:00] pain also shatters. Suddenly, the path before me is clear. There are beautiful vistas filled with light as I travel a healthier path with my higher power.”

What's your take on that, Allison? Tell me a little bit about that.

Allison T: That's been my experience too. It's not necessarily that while I'm journaling or while I'm speaking, while I'm talking to my sponsor - I'm sobbing and I'm like, “I really wish I weren't crying right now while I was talking to you.”

But whether it's five minutes down the road or, or maybe I need to call another person. And then the second person I talk to, I'm a little more clear headed. And then the third person I am almost able to just say it like I'm talking to you right now. I do find that working through those painful experiences and talking through them and journaling through them is the best way to process them.

And I found the same thing actually with anger and resentment. I spent a long time pretending I didn't feel anger or resentment. And I [00:39:00] even remember just being in my room and crying to God and saying, “Just take this away. Why am I feeling so much anger?”

But I wasn't telling anyone about it and I wasn't doing anything about it. Once I learned how to care for myself and how to talk in an appropriate way about my anger to say, “Hey, I feel angry about this,” and then to set a boundary. It’s like when I feel this, I'm going to do this. I was amazed. It went away for me. I was not struggling with that resentment and that anger that I'd struggled with for years. So I really do believe that's the case with, with both of those emotions. 

Justin B: Love it. I have probably three more questions for you, but before I get into those, is there anything else in your story, in your own experience that you really want to make sure that we touch on, on this willing heart before I jump into these wrap up questions?

Allison T: I don't think so. I think we've [00:40:00] talked about it. My main takeaways with my story are that a willing heart for me has come gradually and that I've learned to let it begin with me and let my light shine from within me and to find what I can do. That for me is the epitome of a willing heart, and I think we've covered that. Of course, I'm still learning. I'm working every day. 

Justin B: Thank you so much, Allison. So one of the wrap up questions I have for you, you know the SAL book that we use in s a 12 step - the tagline from it that rarely gets seen or said is “Recovering individuals, healing families.”

How in your experience has having a willing heart helped recover you as an individual and helped heal your family to the point it's healed today?

Allison T: I love that slogan because I do think it's very true. I tried to go from the inside out to recover my [00:41:00] spouse and then hope that that would heal my family. But there are a lot of things I've learned from therapy and from recovery that have helped my marriage regardless of what my husband chooses to do and he's made a lot of good choices. 

So we've experienced a lot of healing, but learning to be honest, humble and accountable - to say whatever I'm feeling and then to take on my part to say, “Well, what is my part in this?” has helped me a lot. I've had a lot less resentment in my marriage, as I mentioned. And that's been really healing for my husband, I think too, to be able to hear what I'm feeling instead of me just not speaking and expecting him to read my mind. 

I mean, there's lots of little issues that I feel like recovery clears up, and I found it with my children too. I think the biggest thing is I am much more empathetic with their emotions. And I find myself [00:42:00] saying a lot,”It makes sense that you're feeling that.”

And like me, I find once they can identify an emotion, if we figure out what they're feeling, it makes sense that they're feeling it. And what are they going to  do about it? They recover, they work their way through emotions. And I think before recovery, I would've been much more inclined to just put a bandaid on it to say, “You're okay. Maybe you want a snack.” And so in maybe not monumental ways, but in really small and healthy ways, I feel like our family is stronger because of this experience.

Justin B: Thank you for sharing that. And I think, by small and simple things, great things can happen. You know, these small things bring about great changes. In the end, you know, a small change of direction can make a big difference.

So thank you for sharing those things with me. Before we wrap up I have two questions. One is, “What piece of advice or personal experience would you give to someone [00:43:00] who is first coming into the rooms of recovery, walking in similar shoes to what you've walked into?” 

Allison T: The first thought that comes to my mind is the slogan, progress, not perfection. Because at the beginning for me, and I see with others, things are very emotional. Progress is not always seen, and perfection is nowhere in sight. I mean, you're looking at yourself and you're seeing all your problems and you're emotional. But as long as you are moving forward, for me, as long as I'm moving forward and I'm doing my next good thing, I'm in recovery.

I'm not evaluating “How fast am I finishing this step?” Maybe, “How fast is that person? Am I faster than that person? Am I keeping up?” Progress not perfection and progress is different for everyone.

Justin B: Thank you for sharing that because I remember when I first finally went into the rooms, it was like, okay, I'm going to  get fixed in 12 weeks because there's 12 steps.

It'll just be 12 weeks and I'll be fixed, I'll be good and be able to move [00:44:00] on. But yeah, that concept of “Progress, not perfection,” “More will be revealed,” those types of things have made a huge difference in my life as I continue to stay in the rooms of recovery. I'm now in for 10 years.

So what thoughts do you have for the person who is years in the room of recovery and maybe whether they're seeing fruits or maybe they're getting complacent, what thoughts do you have for that person? 

Allison T: Yeah, that's also a good question. Since I'm not yet there and I don't know that I'll ever really be there, my thoughts are, what I've witnessed is there's always something to learn and grow in.

And as I've witnessed other women who've been in the program longer, one of my favorite things about my first meeting was seeing someone talk about the 12 steps in their work and in their parenting. And I was like, “They're not even talking about their marriage. Are they married?”

That's, you know, outside of the question, but to see them applying and improving their lives, not just recovering and getting [00:45:00] back to a good space, but to say, “What else can I do?” 

You know, so for me it's, “How can I be more patient? How can I be more willing to empathize?” So for me, that would be my advice because in my experience I've found, when I ask God, there's always ways I can share more light. There are always things I can crack open my unwilling heart to do and just stretch and grow.

Justin B: Thank you so much Allison and I just see the light in your eyes. Thank you for reflecting that light, for sharing that light. There will be many who will be positively affected by your words and your experience, strength and hope. I really appreciate your time here. Everybody, keep coming back. It works when I work it, so work it. You are worth it.