Finding Quality Education to Aid in Recovery from Sex Addiction & Trauma w/ Geoff Steurer

This week Tara talks with licensed marriage and family counselor, author and podcaster Geoff Steurer. Part of the recovery puzzle for both pornography addiction and betrayal truama is to find quality education and therapy. How does one go about this? How do you know what sort of sources to trust? Tara and Geoff discuss these issues as well as timelines for healing and if there is such a thing as a "quick fix" in recovery. 

Connect with Geoff at https://www.geoffsteurer.com/. 

Transcript

Episode 23: Geoff Steurer

Tara: [00:00:00] Geoff Steurer is a licensed marriage and family therapist, author, and podcaster with over 25 years of experience treating couples healing from the impact of sexual betrayal. He is the co-author of Love You, Hate the Porn: Healing a Relationship Damaged by Virtual Infidelity and is the co-host of the podcast From [00:01:00] Crisis to Connection and has produced workbooks, audio programs and online courses, healing couples and individuals from the impact of sexual betrayal, unwanted pornography, use partner betrayal, trauma, and rebuilding broken trust. He earned degrees from Brigham Young University and Auburn University and has extensive training and experience treating sexually compulsive behaviors and betrayal trauma.

He has also completed additional training in emotionally focused couples therapy and is certified in accelerated resolution trauma therapy. He lives in St. George, Utah with his wife of 27 years, and they are the parents of four children.

Welcome to the pathway to recovery podcast. I'm your host Tara McCausland and a warm welcome to my friend Geoff Stewart. Geoff, thanks for being on. 

Geoff: It's always a pleasure. Thanks for having me. 

Tara: Jeff and I go way back and I'm so grateful for Jeff's work. He really understands this issue and is someone that I'm grateful to have linked arms with, and [00:02:00] SA Lifeline has linked arms with for many years.

So again, gratitude for all that you're doing in the field of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. So maybe to give us a little bit of a starting point, we have been discussing the SA Lifeline Recovery Puzzle. And up to this point, we have been discussing what we call the heart and mind inner pieces - the Humble, Accountable, certainly at the center, the Willing Heart and the additional pieces.

And now we've worked our way outside to the four pillars, which are Quality Education, to start Qualified Therapy, seeking spiritual connection through SAL 12 Step Work. And I'm going to forget what the last one is. Oh, Boundaries and Bottom Lines for Safety. It's been a long day already.

Okay. But today we are going to focus on this quality education piece and [00:03:00] Jeff and I, we've been talking a little bit about this. Maybe just to start us off, Jeff, as a therapist that has been working in this field for decades, what are your initial thoughts about why quality education is a critical piece to finding recovery?

Geoff: Oh, man, I've been a big fan of quality education from go. I mean, I just remember my own training as a therapist, like I was just devouring books and trying to understand. There's just no way that one to one communication from another person can, you know, whether it's just talking with a therapist or a meeting with a sponsor, there's no way one other person can communicate the experience and research and knowledge and just collective wisdom that's out there in so many incredible resources - everything from scripture to research and [00:04:00] articles and there are just so many resources. 

I think that the arrogance to believe that you can chart your own course alone, is just so dangerous. And there, I think there's a temptation of course, to want to just be wildly independent in this process, out of shame, out of pride, out of fear, whatever it may, whatever's driving it. And it just doesn't have to be that way. So education really opens up new vistas. It exposes blind spots. It gives ideas. It validates, it supports, it creates openings where there weren't any before. I mean, there's so many things it does.

Tara: How often do we like to chart our own course? As you said, when we're struggling with something, whether it be shame or pride, sometimes we want to think that we know best. But why reinvent the [00:05:00] wheel when there is so much good information out there coming from research and good therapists and organizations that have really been around the block with this issue.

So I appreciate that. And I think it's really critical to also mention that there is a lot of misinformation that we might find online about the subject of pornography use, unwanted sexual behavior and the impact specifically on the spouse when sexually compulsive or addictive behaviors are present.

I'm curious, what would you say are some of the most prominent untruths that are swirling around online and in conversation about these issues?

Geoff: Well, number one, I would just say that one of the biggest ones is that pornography is not harmful. Let's just start there. Just today, just like an hour ago, I was following the work of several [00:06:00] different people out there and somebody that I really respect and does some great work for men, you know, he's talking about the dangers of artificial intelligence and pornography and stuff like that.

And he's basically saying to these guys, “Look, pornography is not okay. It's not helpful. It's going to ruin your life, et cetera.” But then he says in there, and I don't know, I'm going to email him and ask him, he said, “But I'm not saying porn is evil. I'm just saying, it's just not going to be helpful to you.”

And I was just really disappointed in that because I think there are a lot of people out there that are just trying to say, “Hey, you know, you do you. If you want to look at pornography, you know.” But it's just like everybody's tippy toeing around it. 

And I think there are fewer voices that are willing just to say, “No, this is not something that has any kind of value in it at all. It is destructive.” Because people aren't saying that about other things, like heroin or methamphetamines. People aren't just saying, [00:07:00] “I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying, you know...” there's not this tippy toeing around it.

So I think that's one of the biggest ones - it's just the refusal to even acknowledge. So I think if you're trying to figure out where you are, how to get into solid recovery, you're going to read things in particular on this topic that basically validate [this]. You'll see it from therapists. You'll see it from leaders in the field. You'll see it from obviously [in] mainstream media and others that basically are playing down the impact of pornography. 

So I think it's critical for you to get really clear on your value system and find resources that support that. And if you're not clear on whether or not you want to have pornography in your life or your marriage, then you will get whipped around in all kinds of different directions because there are strong voices on all sides of this issue.

So that's one of the biggest myths. The other one is that people can't change. I think there's a lot of this - I see this a lot more in [00:08:00] the betrayal trauma community. There's a lot of understandably very wounded, scared people, women mostly, that just have not had a lived experience with somebody who was willing to do the work or change.

And so therefore it's easy to sort of categorically decide that change is not possible or that people are not willing to change. And I think that's harmful because I honestly couldn't get up every day. and do this kind of work if I didn't believe and see that people can actually change and heal.

All of us need hope and encouragement to know that we can be different. Your parents have a very messy story and they're good people and dear friends and they're great examples of change. And they'll be the first to admit that they're still working on it all the time and we're never done. But change and growth and healing and setbacks and then getting back up and learning [00:09:00] from them, that is all part of the process and you can have a good life with that. 

You don't have to be afraid of that. So those are probably the two biggest ones that I see. You probably have seen some others. I could probably think of five or 10 more, but just for brevity, those are the two first that come to mind.

Tara: Sure. Thank you. Well, I really liked that you brought up that we need to personally get clear on our value system because that will guide our search for information. So I think that that is a fantastic tip. But also I like to, rather than asking the question, “Is porn bad? asking the question, “What are the fruits o pornography use?”

And I think rather than making it bad because a church leader has said it's bad, “How does pornography use make me feel? How does it impact my ability to connect [00:10:00] with others and be my best self?” And so again, I would invite people who are listening, if you're not sure where you stand on this issue to ask those two questions. What do I value? And what are the fruits of pornography that I've seen? Real life, real evidence, not some statistics, not something that a therapist or a faith leader has said, but what has been my experience? Does this help me to be my best self and see other people as their best selves?

So thank you. And we could spend a lot of time about other myths that are all around about this issue, but for brevity, as you said, we're not going to go there. And maybe we've partly answered this question, but because there are so many different voices and sources out there with varying opinions on the issue of pornography use, the sexual compulsive addiction behavior and betrayal trauma.

Do you have any tips [00:11:00] we can use as a guide to help us know if what we are reading or watching could be considered quality education? 

Geoff: Yeah. Well, I think it goes back to your observation about the fruits of it. And I see recovery as something that's expansive. And I think that bad information causes fear and shrinking.

And so, the good information is going to honor agency, it's going to dignify and respect people. It's going to elevate and expand. That's what's going to happen and it's going to bring peace and it's going to bring the ability to bond and connect with other people. There are a lot of voices out there, that you and I both have to sift through. Nobody gets a free pass on this. We all have to be discerning and we have to be critical thinkers. 

There's a great field of study, media literacy that comes out of the communications studies kind [00:12:00] of arena and you can google “media literacy” and there are things that help you become a critical thinker about the things you consume. What's the message? Who created it, why did they create it? What are they trying to sell, what do they want you to do? I look at a lot of voices out there and it's like somebody might be trying to sell things and SA Lifeline has a desire to have people join their groups and programs and build and share their model.

I have the same motivation. And so people should check that and ask, “Who's  created this, where's this coming from? What have other people experienced with it? I think the more critical thinking we can do around these things, [the more] we'll find good information because some of it just doesn't hold up very long.

And of course the fruits of how you feel and what's happening in your relationships. You know, there are things people do that aren't the model I would choose, but they are getting good results and good fruits out of it. And they're feeling connected and they're feeling [00:13:00] peaceful. And real quick, I'll just say one more thing.

I was talking with somebody recently and he said, it's interesting, he goes, “I used to be really frustrated and feel like, ‘Oh, this book or this model or this therapist or this program just didn't work.’” And he says, “I've done my recovery journey over the last, (I think for him, it's been like 10, 15 years) and I realized that each one was a stepping stone and I realized that it was missing something. So then I would seek the next one and that would fill in a piece and I just have stayed on this journey. And I look back and I'm just so grateful for all the pieces because I couldn't have understood or handled the stuff I'm learning and understanding now.”

So it's just a very gentle process of sorting and calling and curating and setting down and picking up - long term. And if you're looking for the magic bullet or the one answer, you'll give up pretty easily. So I just encourage people to stay in the journey and think critically and evaluate and not be afraid to shift and pick things up and [00:14:00] look through other things. There's so much great stuff out there. 

Tara: Yeah. Well, maybe a follow up question. I think part of the mentality that gets us into a space of addiction is the quick fix mentality. And from your clinical experience, how long does it take for someone to heal from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma? And I, you can speak to each separately.

Geoff: I think you're talking about different phases of healing. I think in terms of sobriety and stopping a behavior, I think somebody can really get to a place where they're not crossing those lines, acting out, relapsing, that should be something that most people can do within three to six months. And obviously you need time to prove that you've achieved that. So that's something that you can't say after a week, that you're sober now.

And so I think in terms of sobriety, that happens first for most [00:15:00] people. And that's one thing, but then the longer term work of undoing the emotional immaturity, the attachment issues, any trauma wounds, learning how to relate and be connected to someone else, learning how to speak up and own your needs.

I mean, there are so many pieces that were undergirding this issue. My experience with people, most people that I work with are in my process for a year to two years. But 12 step work and other types of support like that, I think should go on for much longer than that.

I think people should stay in a process and have an attitude of learning and growing way beyond the formal support that they might get in therapy and even 12 step. Even if they stop going to group as often, years down the road, there should be a mindset of ongoing learning and recovery. 

And betrayal trauma in terms of the [00:16:00] trust and forgiveness and just feeling reconnected and safe again, you know, I don't see that happening for most couples in under a year. I would say that it takes a lot of practice and a lot of consistency and humility and it takes a while to slow down and really see if changes are happening.

Looking at your puzzle model, all those things in there, the humility, the accountability, the surrender, all those things, for a lot of people are brand new concepts and they take a while to even identify, learn and apply. So if those aren't in place, a partner is not going to trust. She just won't. And so those take a while to develop and live consistently. So, I just say years to all of it. To me, it's years, none of this is quick.

Tara: And the reason why I wanted you to talk about your experience, [00:17:00] your clinical experience, is because I think that can be a guidepost.

If someone is telling you that you can go to this retreat or this inpatient program and you'll be better in six weeks, I think that that should raise a red flag in your mind. These types of issues, they've been building for years, often since childhood. And the more I’ve learned about addiction, the more I recognize that it is a symptom of a deeper issue. It's like peeling back an onion and it takes a while to get to the core sometimes. 

And that's not to deflate or discourage people, but as we're seeking good information and good help, keep that in mind. If anybody offers you the magic bullet, the pill and says, “This is it, and you'll be all better in weeks or months,” you ought to rethink that.

But I also [00:18:00] just wanted to reiterate that bad information, the fruits of it will promote fear and the shrinking. I kind of like that image. But the good information will facilitate and promote hope and peace and connection, so all good things. And so to our listeners, again, if you're not really quite sure which way, which voice to listen to, keep these things in mind. Great information there. Thank you. 

Geoff: Yeah. I want to share another thought on this whole thing. There is a great devotional that you can find online by Jonathan Sandberg, who's a BYU marriage and family therapy professor. It's called Healing Equals Courage Plus Action Plus Grace. And he quotes Elaine Marshall in here about the difference between what she calls cure versus healing. And she talks about how so many people are focused on cures. Even in medicine, you know, she's the dean of [00:19:00] nursing and she was the former dean of nursing at BYU, and she said that, even in medicine, there's this obsession with cure.

And she says in medicine even, there are rarely ever cures for anything. And so this is what she says. She says, “On my first day as a nurse, I assumed cure, care and healing to be synonymous. I have learned that they are not the same. Healing is not cure, because cure is clean, quick, and done, often under anesthesia.

Healing, however, is often a lifelong process of recovery and growth in spite of, maybe because of, enduring physical, emotional, or spiritual assault. It requires time. It requires all the energy of your entire being. You have to be there, fully awake, aware, and participating when it happens.”

And I often tell people, it's like you're going to have to do heart surgery without anesthesia to do this kind of work. And it's going to hurt and it's going to be [00:20:00] difficult. And you're going to want to go to sleep. You're going to want to check out from it. And that's understandable. So that's why we pace it out and give people lots of long term support because there's no cure for this. It's not quick, but people can heal.

Tara: Yeah. Thank you so much. They can heal and the gifts of recovery are very real. And I always like to say that, I probably say it more than listeners want to hear all the time, but if we're willing to do the work and really dig in, what we put in will come out tenfold in our relationships, in our families and with God. It really can be life changing in the best way.

So don’t be afraid of the process, but be willing to. As you said, this is going to be painful and hard and worth it, if you're willing to put in the time and the effort. SA Lifeline has created what we call the circles models to help [00:21:00] people better understand the comprehensive nature of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, and to give them kind of a visual of what the two look like. And by the way, if you go to salifeline.org and go to the recovery puzzle under Who We Are, you can get a full copy of the recovery puzzle with some explanation. 

So if we were to look specifically at the model of pornography use and sexual addiction we see first someone who is self absorbed and how that is impacting the spiritual, emotional, physical, mental state of this person. And something that can be really challenging for both the addicted and betrayed is that we can get really confused about, “What does recovery really look like?”

Because an addict can be speaking and saying, “I'm doing all of these things.” But we can't fully trust the words, we can trust the behavior. All these other words that are in [00:22:00] the center, in the white space that the addiction manifests - as lonely, as victim, withdrawn, resentful, lustful, acting out - I'm curious from a clinical standpoint, going back to this idea of good information, how do you guide the betrayed spouses to know whether or not their partner is in recovery? And does this help facilitate that, having something, a model to look at and comparing and contrasting certain behaviors?

Geoff: Yeah. Models in general, make it easy to digest this. I get so many people that ask that question of, “How do I know where I'm at in the process? How do I know where this is going to go? How long is this going to take?” I mean, naturally people want to get oriented. And I think there are really concise ways to check yourself and, you've got the kind [00:23:00] of the addiction side of it and then the living and recovery side of it for each person and the marriage. And I think you could snapshot this and look at it and say, “Let me just do an inventory here and see where I'm at on these things.”

I mean, any one of these, any one of these areas you talk about, manipulation or resentment or lying, these things that are felt and observed, any one of those, there are books written on each one of these topics. And I just encourage partners, betrayed partners to really become educated about signs of this so that they can trust themselves when they feel this, when they see this and not be talked out of it by themselves or by someone else. And to be able to trust their own experiences. 

I'm sure there are a lot of ways to hide and a lot of ways to manipulate and so on, but eventually it's impossible to go long term with a serious issue, that's an ongoing pattern [00:24:00] and conceal that. We all make mistakes and maybe we don't want everybody to know things here and there, and we might be able to, I guess you could say, get away with that occasionally. But if it's an ongoing pattern, if it's something that becomes a way of life, ultimately that's going to catch up. And a betrayed partner can really become an expert on her own relationship and family and be able to see and feel and trust that. Because so many times they get talked out of it and they're told that nothing's going on and that just doesn't have to happen. 

Tara: So we like to say at SA Lifeline, “How do you know if an addict is in recovery?” They are humble, honest, accountable, and connecting with God and others. And it's hard sometimes to see honesty, but you can see and feel humility and accountability. And you can see when they're engaging in real authentic ways with the [00:25:00] people around them, being willing to be vulnerable and accountable for how they're using their time and what efforts they're making in their recovery work.

We know at SA Lifeline that good information, especially when you're dealing with betrayal because you've been gaslit and you tend to distrust yourself because of the lies and the deceit, that you need some guideposts. So you know, “What can I look for so I can trust that he really is in recovery?”

Hopefully we're not kind of going off into the weeds here, but recently I heard that there were a couple of therapists who formerly, apparently, had believed and taught about betrayal trauma, but were now saying that betrayal trauma wasn't a real condition. Do you have people coming into your office that don't know that they're dealing with trauma and can't identify it in themselves or [00:26:00] don't want to acknowledge that?

Geoff: Oh, all the time. Yeah. And there are lots of therapists that don't think this is a thing. They would say things like, “A betrayed partner just needs to stop being so reactive or just own, take accountability for her own thoughts.”

And I mean, those are all important adult mature things to do and take responsibility for our lives. But ignoring the actual impact of trauma is like telling a car accident victim that they should just have more positive thoughts or they should just take more responsibility for how they're walking - it's just ignoring a massive piece of the context and the safety.

And so, yes, I think that there can sometimes be an overemphasis on personal responsibility at the expense of the trauma context. Every trauma survivor, whether it's betrayal trauma, intimate partner trauma or natural disaster, whatever, every single person that I've ever worked with doesn't like feeling that way. [00:27:00] You're almost preaching to the choir when you tell them that they need to feel differently or think differently or do something. They're like, “Yes, I would love that.”

But backing up several steps and acknowledging the reality of betrayal and the fear and the control they've been under and the manipulation and all the different things like that really allows them to finally start making some movement. Because so much of the early journey is them trying to convince themselves that they're just not losing their minds and that they need safety. They need resources and support and to be believed. And that oftentimes gets skipped over by a lot of professionals and people out there and it's unfortunate because they don't get help.

So I get a lot of clients coming into my practice who have already met with other therapists or church leaders or other people who basically have just [been] ignored, completely bypassed or minimized, or they've just gotten some general self help advice to just pull up their [00:28:00] bootstraps and move forward with their lives. And it's not helpful.

Tara:  Yeah. Well, good quality education will teach us that we need qualified therapy to deal with both sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, and that these are real, real things. And so if we look at the model of spouse betrayal and trauma, say someone's listening and they're not sure if they're dealing with betrayal trauma, again, this model is helpful. Betrayal trauma often looks like obsessive, hopeless, numb, withdrawn, confused, depressed, resentful, angry, codependent behavior, fearful, hyper vigilant. And women, as you said, part of the experience not just for women or betrayed spouses in general, is just trying to convince themselves that they are not crazy because betrayal trauma feels like crazy until there is an [00:29:00] acknowledgement that this is an injury. As you said, “I've been harmed. And not because of something that I did.” I like the metaphor of the car accident for that very reason, we can be driving very safely and thoughtfully and be broadsided and it can upend our world just like betrayal trauma. 

Well, I appreciate you speaking to these two pieces just as an example of some quality education that we hope to provide at salifeline.org. And as I had just mentioned, if we're getting good education on this subject, the next piece is qualified therapy. We are grateful for qualified therapists who take the time to really understand this issue because as we've discussed, this is not a quick fix issue. It's peeling an onion slowly, really getting down to the core of some [00:30:00] bigger, deeper issues.

I really enjoyed this conversation, Jeff. Before I move to our two final questions, is there any final counsel or advice that you might give on the subject of finding, seeking quality education? 

Geoff: Well, I want to put in a plug for just the resources that you guys have created. Part of how I started my relationship with SA Lifeline was goodness, I think it was 2007 or 2008 when your parents were starting to really create some of these initial resources. They were not only speaking from their own experiences, but they were starting to really collaborate and meet with and seek out good information. So again, you don't have to start at zero and start that journey like they did. They've been gathering information for close to 15, 20 years that is found in these resources, these manuals and models. And these are [00:31:00] great places to start and it may take you to other places, which is great.

But you can trust the resources that are here because they've been vetted and curated over so many years and many revisions and lots of professionals who do this kind of work - we sign off on this stuff and I'm grateful for it and that it's available for free to so many people. It's just fantastic. 

Tara: Well, I appreciate that plug, Geoff. And you know, if people want to find you because you are providing some great resources, where's the best place to find you, Jeff?

Geoff: So I'm hanging out in a few places. I have a podcast called From Crisis to Connection that I actually do with my wife. And she's a great sounding board and we just sit around and talk about all kinds of different topics related to healing from betrayal, healing relationships, that whole continuum of crisis all the way to connection. So you can find that wherever you listen to podcasts. And then I also have a weekly newsletter I send out that you [00:32:00] can subscribe to, and you can just find all that on my website. I have a free course that I offer on my website, The Seven Steps to Rebuilding Trust. And so you can go there and sign up for that. So there are a lot of resources on my website, it's fromcrisistoconnection.com. So that's the easiest way to find me. I would love to connect with anybody here. If you are looking for resources and need support, I'm pretty responsive, so I'll get back to you. 

Tara: I can second that Geoff is incredibly responsive. He's a great therapist. And I will put a couple of links in the show notes.

Geoff, thank you. Well, to end, we're going to have various audiences listening to this episode, some who are new to recovery and some who've been doing this for a while. What would you say first to individuals who are new to recovery work? And second, what would you tell someone who's been walking this road for a while?

Geoff: [00:33:00]Yeah, for people that are new, first, if you're listening to this, just please know that you're not alone and that you're not you're not crazy. And for the person who's struggling with out of control behaviors, you're not a horrible person and it's not over. 

You might have, there might be consequences. There might be changes, lifestyle things, other losses and things, but you as an individual can always heal. I think people need to have hope in this process and need to know that this is not the final destination. This is not going to be the rest of their lives. And that there are principles and practices that will create these gifts that you talk about, Tara.

So I would want people that are starting the process to just really hear and feel the hope that things will get better and that there's ways to do it. It's not just superstition or magic or even like cancer, where some people, no matter what they [00:34:00] do, are going to die. This is based on principles and practices that can be applied and there can be actual healing. And you can absolutely do something about it for yourself and then together for your relationship. 

So, and then for people that long term, I would just say on that side of it, that if you're feeling tired and you're feeling mixed about maybe some grief and loss, around how much time this has taken or maybe how your life doesn't look the way you thought it would - I hope you'll be gentle with yourself and with each other and recognize and look for those gifts of recovery. What has changed? What feels different? What's easier now? What's new and different in your relationships with each other, with yourself, with your God and really just slow down and pay attention.

Sometimes it's so hard to maintain that perspective when you're just buried in it all the time working and working and working on it. So hopefully you could step back and [00:35:00] and really notice and acknowledge that there is growth happening. And if there are areas where you feel like you're just spinning your wheels or you feel like you're not getting the help you need, don't give up. There are lots of resources. Ask good questions, reach out for help, keep seeking and stay in the process because like I tell the people in the beginning, this does not have to be a life sentence. You can absolutely grow and thrive despite all the struggles. 

Tara: Love it. Thank you so much, Geoff. And thank you so much for the great work, again, that you are doing in this field. We appreciate you here at SALifeline. So thanks for spending this time with me.

Geoff: Thank you so much, Tara.

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