Developing a Willing Heart in Recovery as a Betrayed Partner w/ Jill Manning

Host Tara McCausland speaks with betrayal trauma expert, Dr. Jill Manning,  about how a betrayed partner can apply the  recovery puzzle pieces of a willing heart, honesty,  humility, accountability, commitment, and seeking spiritual connection to facilitate healing.  As a betrayed spouse, it is easy to feel like a victim of our addicted partner's behavior and believe recovery work is theirs to do, not ours. While this is understandable, Jill and Tara discuss why some partners might  struggle with this and how staying in that mindset can stifle growth.  Jill discusses how  betrayed partners can move out of a victim mindset to a willingness to step on and stay on the recovery path to experience true, long-term healing. 

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Developing a Willing Heart as a Betrayed Partner With Dr. Jill Manning

Tara: [00:00:00] Dr. Jill Manning is a licensed marriage and family therapist who specializes in working with individuals who have been sexually betrayed through infidelity or compulsive sexual behavior. For over two decades, her [00:01:00] work has been featured in numerous peer reviewed research journals, television programs, documentaries, radio shows, podcasts, and magazine articles, including the Oprah magazine. While serving as a social science fellow at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, DC, she was invited to testify before a US Senate subcommittee about the harms of pornography on the family and later authored the book What's the Big Deal About Pornography. 

A native of Calgary, Alberta, Canada, she currently lives and practices in Colorado, and you may follow her on Instagram @ Dr. Jill Manning. Welcome to the pathway to recovery podcast. I'm your host Tara McCausland, and I'm so excited to have, I'd like to call you my friend, my friend Dr. Jill Manning here with me today. Thank you so much for being here. 

Jill: Oh, this is a treat. So thank you for the invitation. 

Tara: And I don't want to embarrass you, Jill, but truly you are one of the [00:02:00] classiest, smartest women I know. And she has been a great advocate of SA Lifeline for many, many years and is a member of our advisory board.

So we are just so grateful for you, for the work that you do in your practice and also the support that you continue to give to us at SA Lifeline. You really are a wonder and you do so much in this field. So last month, I talked with Dr. Eddie Caprucci. I don't know if you're familiar with Eddie, but we have been covering the recovery puzzle pieces, specifically the heart and mind recovery puzzle pieces. At the center of that puzzle is a willing heart to do the work and the honest, humble, accountable, committed, seeking a spiritual connection. And I start with this because I think for a lot of us, we understand how this applies to someone who's dealing with sexually compulsive issues or addictions. 

[00:03:00] But this might be less clear for someone who's dealing with betrayal. And so I felt like Jill, with your background specifically working with the betrayed, I know that you understand to some degree how easy it is to feel like a victim of our addicted partners behavior and believe that recovery work is theirs to do, right? Not ours. And so while I do understand this, I also know that staying in that mindset can be paralyzing. So I'm curious, tell me a bit about your experience with this and how you help betrayed partners move out of that victim mindset to a willingness to step on and stay on the recovery path. 

Jill: Wow. There's so much to say about this topic, so I'll do my best here to keep this succinct. And I really appreciate this opening and this question because you're so right. If people stay [00:04:00] in that victimhood and victimhood becomes an identity or even a lifestyle, they will not heal. And the bigger danger that I want to bring attention to at the outset here is, if people stay in that they are at high risk of doing what we call victim offending, which means that I feel justified, even entitled in acting in abusive, offensive ways.

Primarily toward the perpetrator, the betrayal, because I've been done wrong, and there can be a lot of energy, rage; that's understandable. And so I want to validate, first of all, [that] this is painful, and people are victimized, but only for a very short time. The actual victimization is brief. What we choose to do with that, afterward, is on us.

And that [00:05:00] is both a burden as well as a great responsibility. And it helps us show whether we are going to be mature and really grow up through this process or stay stuck and stay in that very young mentality of, “I'm a victim and therefore all of this needs to be directed to him for attention and problem solving and I get a pass.”

Well, we all know that's not how life works. That's just not how life works. And so the analogy I want to use is that of a car accident. So I'm going to start with a true story, and I hope this won't be triggering, especially for anyone that's been in a similar accident out there. When I was in my late teens, I was driving home from a church dance with two of my close friends.

I was in the passenger seat in the front, another friend was in the back seat, and my dear friend, who I won't name [00:06:00] because this story is still a source of embarrassment, was driving. And this was in Canada where I'm from. We hit black ice. It was about 10: 30 at night and although the road looked wet, it was actually black ice.

We hit black ice. The car started spinning and we hit 12 other vehicles with this car. There were 13, multiple other vehicles in this black ice crash. It was terrifying, Tara. I did not in that moment, did not think I was going to make it out alive. We had vehicles hitting us from all sides. It felt like the whole car was totaled and I needed help from paramedics to get out of the vehicle.

I was injured. Thankfully, not as seriously as it could have been, but I was injured. Now, was that accident my fault? No, and [00:07:00] I still deserved and needed care. I needed help getting out of the vehicle, and I needed medical attention afterward. [It} had nothing to do with blame, or of who was responsible.

And I think of betrayal trauma in a similar lens, that PTSD even is not an illness. Trauma is not an illness. It's an injury. It's an injury of our nervous system. And when we receive that kind of an injury, through no fault of our own, in the majority of cases, we still deserve care. So we can focus on care and healing without pathologizing ourselves. There was nothing wrong with me in that moment, but I was injured.

Does that make sense? And so I deserve that care. If I had not gotten that care, I probably realistically would still [00:08:00] have some significant back issues in adulthood and would have even worse issues with a left hip that still gives me grief here and there. 

And so that's how I want to frame this [so] that if someone's out there thinking, “I don't want to get help. This is his mess to clean up. Just, call on me when he's all better.” There's a few things that will happen that are concerning. One, I don't think that's a way to really honor ourselves. It closes us off from an opportunity to learn, which I think there's always a cost and risk to that.

And we also know from research that the prognosis for the addict is not as good when both partners aren't engaged in some form of recovery work. So there's a lot of variables, Tara, that go into the intensity of care that's needed. You know, for example, going back to the car [00:09:00] accident analogy, if I had already had an injury, let's say I had my arm in a sling from a different event while I was in the car, that would have impacted how that car accident landed and impacted me.

If I was in deep, deep depression when that occurred, that probably would have spun me out in a different way or if I did not have, let's say my family was going through a lot of chaos and drama at that time. So there's a lot of variables that affect how that injury lands and affects us. And so I just would encourage anyone listening to to honor themselves, to listen to their body, spirit, mind, that it's okay.

It's actually, I know we hear this as a cliche statement, but it's true - in my view, it's not only a sign of strength, but also a sign of maturity to recognize when we need help [00:10:00] and when we've been injured. And this is a significant injury. 

Tara: I love that analogy. We're bumping into people as we go along this life journey and that causes different challenges. I'm not sure what the underlying reason would be for us in this particular case with betrayal trauma to say, “It wasn't my fault I don't want to deal with this. Therefore I am going to remove myself from the recovery or healing journey that perhaps I should take. But I feel shame or I feel anger.”

If we look at other pain that comes to us in life, I don't think that we would excuse ourselves from wanting to help ourselves. Does that make sense? There's something very specific about this particular trauma and injury that does feel so personal that maybe it is the shame that holds us back. What are your thoughts on that? 

Jill: Boy, shame is sure a factor. And [00:11:00] again, if someone comes from a history where there's more, what I call “loading of shame,” you know, shame is more intense. It's more layered. They may have had more messages received, and internalized about blame. You know, someone that's been scapegoated in their family and blamed for other types of problems is very likely going to have more sensitivity to even this hint of blame. And we also know, and this is important to state, that too often a betrayed partner is blamed by extended family, by the addict himself or herself. Or by ecclesiastical leaders that are not well educated on this topic. 

So I think that needs to be named, that this is not an imaginary issue. People really are blamed. And in fact, blame is one of the things we measure on the Sexual Betrayal [00:12:00] Trauma Assessment called the TIPSA. That's a Trauma Inventory for Partners of Sex Addicts.

We measure that because we know the higher the level of blame that's directed toward a betrayed partner, we will see a corresponding impact on the severity of symptoms. I mean, that really is so confusing. You know, I'm thinking back to the car accident. If I had then, as a passenger, been blamed for that car accident, that would have impacted me deeply, especially at the age of 16, 17.

And if I didn't have supports around me clarifying, “No, no, no, no, no. You know what? Even the best and most seasoned drivers can hit black ice.” If I had not had that message in that off ramp, that really would have been devastating. I think that would have made me an anxious driver for years to come. So real blame does happen. Shame is real. 

But something I want to say [00:13:00] about shame, if I may - I think shame really gets a bad rap. I think shame really can be a guide in our healing because shame is one thing of many that helps me remember, “I'm not God. I need a God. I have limits. I can't do this all by myself. I'm not perfect.” And it's when I'm able to look at my shame spots that it highlights where I can grow.

So for many years, I think we've focused so much on toxic shame and treating it like an emotion that we're not supposed to feel, but it is a God given emotion. And so I think like any emotion, it can be leveraged for our growth and healing. So even for the partner out there that's feeling a lot of shame, a lot of embarrassment, a lot of confusion, [00:14:00] I would say, “Use it, lean into that and see what is that fear of being blamed or the experience of being blamed.”

What is that bringing up? What does that trigger for you? What old wounds get activated? Everybody deserves healing and there are excellent providers out there and supports and 12 step peers who can help you embrace all of that. That whole mess can be embraced and leaned into and helped. It'd actually be a gift to our healing if we let it.

Tara: Yes. So I love that concept of reframing shame in general, but also reframing this experience as an opportunity to heal, grow and progress. This is perhaps an opportunity for me to address some things that have, previous to this, maybe I didn't want to uncover because of some discomfort But that's hard when you're in the depths, especially early [00:15:00] on in discovery. But looking at the recovery puzzle and for our listeners, iIf you're not familiar with the recovery puzzle, I invite you to go to salifeline.org. There are several places where it is posted so you can get a visual of what this looks like. This is unique to SA lifeline. 

But looking at the recovery puzzle, it's easy to see how those inner pieces of humble, rigorous honesty, accountability might fit into the recovery journey for someone who's dealing with a porn or sexual addiction, but again, it's less obvious for a betrayed partner.

However, our experience at SA Lifeline does suggest that applying each of these pieces is critical for both the betrayed and the addicted in their healing. So I would love to touch on each piece and hear your thoughts about how a betrayed partner might apply those three specific pieces, being humble, honest, and accountable, and how that benefits them in [00:16:00] their healing.

Jill: Sure, I'd love to, because I'm a big fan of that recovery circle and those different ingredients. Each one of them is so key. So let's start with humility. And I'm actually going to pull from the definition of humility that's used in AA's 12 step. And it says, “Humility is a clear recognition of what and who we really are, followed by a sincere attempt to become what we could be.”

How powerful is that? What an invitation and a call to be our best self. So often humility, I think in our world, is viewed somewhat through a negative gaze of, “Oh, it means that I have to think of myself in a downward direction of some kind.” Not at all. I think it's that seeing ourselves and the [00:17:00] situation and our partner clearly.

That means that we're not minimizing our partner's behavior. I'm going to speak in a gender segregated way if that's okay, referring to the addict as male, partner as female. You know, that means that I'm not seeing him as more than he is. I run into that quite often in my work, where she's not seeing him clearly.

She's still under his gaze or charm, if you will, and not seeing the severity of his behaviors and the risks to her safety as a result. Or we also run into where we may be seeing him or ourselves in a very negative light where we're not recognizing progress or strengths or characteristics that really can be a gift to this healing process.

And I think any injury and trauma especially clouds our view. Why? Because it dysregulates us. [00:18:00] It disconnects the mind and body and spirit. We get very discombobulated by design, but not by design. By definition, trauma can be a source of disconnection. And so healing is reconnecting those parts of ourselves, realigning, getting grounded, getting lined up and centered again.

And part of that lining up and getting centered, I believe, is humility - of being able to get centered and see clearly who I am, who my partner is, and what is really going on. And without humility, I'm not going to have a solid base through which to use my honesty, if that makes sense. 

Humility, I think, is what gets us on solid ground with seeing reality. And then when I'm honest, it has somewhere to go. [00:19:00] I want to share a quote that I've liked. This is from Pia Melody. She's done decades of work in the field of addiction.

She says, “Through the years, I found two things that clearly tune in the radio station.” And she's referring to the radio station within ourselves. “One is truth. And the other one is love. When we tell ourselves the truth instead of lies, we are automatically tuning into higher power energy in choosing truth, choosing to be loving to self and others. Then the radio station is absolutely perfectly clear.” And I love that. So radical rigorous honesty is the requirement for healing, both for the addict, but also for the partner. I worry when I encounter betrayed partners, Tara, who may be minimizing the impact on children, the impact on their health.[00:20:00] 

That is scary ground. So honesty is what lets us see clearly what needs healing and what that path forward is. Otherwise we're deluding ourselves and staying in a very clouded, confused state. 

Tara: I love that concept of humility, giving that space, the bandwidth to see reality. When we are self absorbed or when our spouse, our addicted spouse is at our center instead of God, which I believe having God at our center is what promotes humility -  it is very, very hard to move forward because we're living in a haze. I think humility and honesty play a role in accountability when we talk about accountability. What does that look like for a betrayed partner?

Jill: Well, the people that I respect the most, people that I really look up to, [00:21:00] they're people that value accountability and feedback and reflection from others.

They're the people that seek out feedback, that insist on having a supervisor or someone, even if they're seasoned in their field. Because they understand the value of feedback from others, but also the reality and truth that all of us have blind spots. Every single one of us has blind spots. And so there's a quote by Steve Schellenberger that I really like. He says, “You steadily grow into becoming your best as you choose to be accountable and accept responsibility for improvement.”

So when accountability is in the context of growth and becoming our best self, I think it takes on a whole new tone. When accountability is viewed as, “Oh, I can't be trusted. I have to be supervised.” Then it becomes shaming and icky and not something that's [00:22:00] helpful, I think. But accountability in my view is what helps me stay in integrity. And humility is a part of that because it's the humility that I understand, “Hey, I do have blind spots and I don't always see myself in a situation clearly.”

So as I combine accountability and humility and someone sharing honest feedback with me and I'm being honest and committed to being honest with myself and others - that comes together as a trifecta where I really can grow. There's power in it also in having our story witnessed. When I'm accountable, I'm out of isolation.

When I think of accountability, that's also connection, right? I'm connected in some way, whether that's my 12 step sponsor, a therapist, a mentor, friend, whoever it is, I'm connected. So accountability is crucial because it [00:23:00] invites us out of isolation.

We have the gift and blessing of feedback. Not all of it's going to be helpful. That's okay. We can learn from one another, right? But it's, those are just key, key ingredients. All of those together. Yeah. I love that. 

Tara: As you know, we are big advocates of 12 step work and it can be really challenging for a betrayed partner to step into the rooms of recovery for the first time and be on step four, where the focus is on our character defects and how we are contributing to the pain that we're experiencing in life.

I can really empathize with the difficulty that that would be for someone new to recovery. As you talk about humility and honesty and accountability, though - say you were talking to a woman who had just recently had that experience and was new to 12 [00:24:00] step. And they were experiencing these feelings of frustration about, “Why is there so much focus on my shortcomings or defects rather than a focus on his issues?” How do you help the betrayed partner work through that?

Jill: Great question. We must start with validation. I can deeply validate and understand. I relate to the individual that's maybe coming into the fourth step meeting or even being approached with that idea, that concept. It's offensive. It feels insulting. It feels like another blow to one's psyche initially. So I think we need to validate that.

That's an understandable experience, especially when someone's brand new to all of this. So lean into that, validate that and ask, “What's coming up? What does this remind you of? Why [00:25:00] is this offensive? Why is this an insult?” And then, you know, this may take people different lengths of time, but eventually where we're striving to go is empowerment, to help people get clear that the only place they really have control is themselves.

And so if we're going to be empowered instead of staying in victimhood, this is really the only focus worthy of having. It is what is in my history, in my present day way of being in the world that is compounding this pain that's adding to my suffering? And again, that we grow into the maturity of this is not about the blame game.

Two things can be true at the same time. I can be blameless for my partner's choices and acting out in egregiousness. And [00:26:00] I'm a human and I have room to grow and I've been injured. And how do I want to choose to be my best self as I navigate this injury? Those two things can be true at the same time.

But when we're in active trauma, we get very binary in our thinking. So I really have compassion. We need to be patient with ourselves and with others who may be starting out where they're thinking in that “all or nothing.” It's all him. Nothing about me here. That's actually a sign of trauma when someone's in that very black and white, all or nothing state of mind. So compassion, validation, and as quickly as we can, and each person's different, to help them get onto that path of personal empowerment, realizing what they can and can't control, where their true power lies. 

And I want to say for a moment, I don't know of a person, and I'm stepping out [00:27:00] of betrayal trauma here for a minute, just broadly speaking, I don't know of a human that doesn't have areas where they can improve and grow in their mental wellness and health or spiritual health or physical health. I don't know that person. So to say to be in that mindset of “This is all his, count me out.” I think it's to really give up on ourselves in some way like, “Yeah, no, I've arrived. No work here, but there's not one thing I could possibly improve upon.”

I think it's really doing a disservice because, and I hope I can articulate this clearly - the pain is not because of him. His actions, the betrayal, rigored things in us. The pain [00:28:00] lies in us, and that pain is going to look a little different for each person because it depends on our beliefs, expectations, history, our trauma histories, how something lands and what that activates. But ultimately we are responsible for how we choose to navigate and heal or not.

We do have the right to choose not to heal - how, what we want to do with that, what we want to do with our histories and all the ways we show up in the world, the good, the bad, and the ugly. If I may, I want to share this, this is a real example that I think highlights this whole topic in a pretty powerful way.

This is a true story. This happened to me about a year ago. My practice, Tara, because I choose to be in a small practice, is me, myself and I. I've chosen not to run a clinic, right? There's reasons for that. So it's just me. I don't have an [00:29:00]assistant. It's just Jill. And when you call Jill's phone, Jill calls you back, right?

When you email Jill, Jill emails you back. So because of that, my practice is most often full. And about a year ago, I had one spot open. I had one spot for a new individual client. And on the same day, within two hours of one another, I had two women email me requesting that they wanted to start individual therapy with me.

And I'm going to summarize the two different postures they were taking. The first woman who emailed me, her email was, I would say, somewhat curt. It was leaning in the rude direction. But I also know this is someone in pain. And she said, “I don't have any issues. My husband's a sex addict, but I'd like to [00:30:00] talk with you to get some help for how to help my children, okay?”

So this was someone who's like, “Count me out. The help's not for me. I'm being a good dutiful mother here and I want to help my kids,” which that's a great desire. I could get behind that, but this idea, “I don't have any issues.” That's really interesting. 

Within two hours of receiving that email, I receive another email from a woman who says, “Jill, I'm devastated by what I just recently learned that my husband's been doing. I believe he's a sex addict. I don't know for sure. I need help. I'm just undone by this.” She told me what she did professionally and I'll just say what she told me, I was like, “Wow, this is someone who's, this is an intelligent person. This is someone with a lot of talents. This is no slouch”. Okay.

And she [00:31:00] was just, there was that humility in that second email of like, “Help me.” And I remember her saying something along the lines of, “I'm wide open to your suggestions and guidance.” Who do you think, I had one spot, who do you think I called back with that spot? The first woman or the second woman?

Tara: There's a clear choice there, the second. 

Jill: The second, because she's open, she's ready. She's ready to dig in, right? The first woman, I replied to her and sent her some resources online that I know have the information about kids and disclosure to kids. She could amply get that online through the resources I sent her.

So I did that. But ethically, I can't be all things to all people. I only had one spot at that time. I have boundaries and limits myself and within my practice. And so my desire and passion is to help those that are ready to get on the path of [00:32:00] recovery, that are going to maximize that opportunity. So the woman, the second woman that emailed was the one I replied back to at lunchtime saying, “I would love to meet with you. Let's figure out a time to connect.”

So I think those two postures summarize the power of those ingredients, right? Humility, honesty. I don't think that's an honest statement to say, “I have no issues.” That's a delusional statement.

That's showing a lack of accountability too. Like, no, no, no, I just want help for my kids. I don't want any feedback from me. Quite honestly, how I also viewed that first individual is as someone who's in a lot of pain, denial, shame, hurting. I have compassion for that person and I hope that she eventually gets the help she needs if she's open to it.

But it's also, and I say this truthfully, it's beyond my pay grade. I don't have the skill set. I [00:33:00] don't have the power to help someone that's in that posture. So, it was also me being humble, honest, accountable to my own limits, Tara, to recognize woman number two as the woman that I had the greatest chance to be able to support and help and work with.

So these traits apply to each of us. And when it comes together, we can really get traction. 

Tara: I love that example. I think stories are always helpful in bringing it home. I certainly know as the daughter of an addict watching the journey of my mother specifically from the first disclosure to the third, how she had hit her rock bottom.

The third time around I think there was humility and wanting to make some changes for herself prior to the third disclosure, but there was a willingness to surrender to a power greater [00:34:00] than herself, which is true humility. And it was then that things started to move and shift in a positive way.

We cannot want recovery more for a loved one, than they want it for themselves. And that's true for the addicted and for the betrayed. My hope is that as people hear more about the necessity of being willing to get on this path, the sooner they will be able to heal. 

And, isn't that what we all want? We can kick against the pricks for a long time. And people do. But it is my experience, and I appreciate you sharing yours, that when we can humble ourselves and be willing to look at ourselves very honestly and be accountable for how we are contributing to our own pain, regardless of what's been done to us, there's always possibility for healing and growth. 

Jill: Agreed. Yes. Yes. And something I think I touched on this perhaps earlier on Tara, but the [00:35:00] individuals out there with complex trauma that in their families of origin, were shamed a lot, were put down or scapegoated.

I do want to say that they will often have a harder time grasping onto the quality of recovery work and path that we're describing here today, because it will just feel life threatening to them to admit that there may be any role they play in the healing process. Because it will feel too familiar to old trauma.

So if someone out there is listening and can relate to that, my recommendation would be to find someone that specializes in trauma, family of origin trauma. Sometimes we have to get ready for the work. There's no shame in that. Sometimes that's just where we're at. And that's the first step we need to take is to unpack some of that messaging that's getting in the way and blocking us from getting on the path with betrayal trauma work.

Tara: Thank you for [00:36:00] sharing that. So another piece that is really critical is this idea of commitment. We know that recovering from betrayal trauma, this can be a long and tiring journey to heal. And it's definitely a marathon and not a sprint. What role do you see commitment playing for the betrayed? But how do you help women maybe reframe again, rather than the quick fix mindset to “This is a journey.”

Jill: Great question because too often the healing process is underestimated in terms of time. So commitment, it's not much different than commitment in any other area of our life when when we're able to stick with something, we see results.

Sadly, I see too many, in my opinion, too many who will disengage from healing work, typically after disclosure. Once they have the truth, there's a sigh of relief. Maybe the truth confirms, “Oh, this wasn't as [00:37:00] bad as I was fearing,” or “This is way worse than I was fearing.” I will see people back away. “Okay, now that I know what's going on, that's all that I need.”

So people are at different stages of change. And my wish, and it's thoroughly biased, of course, is that when people can stick with it, what a legacy and gift that is for their family, for themselves, and for a relationship - whether that's reconciliation with the marriage that's been betrayed, or a relationship, that's been betrayed, or divorce, or a different relationship in the future. But I think commitment is really honoring ourselves.

And with that said, commitment doesn't mean it stays the same for years and years. The intensity of work, I would say typically that first year to two years is the most intense window and then it dissipates. It can shift. [00:38:00] It should so it's not that there's an expectation that people keep up an unrealistic pace or that's financially doing them in. This needs to be moderate and manageable. And I think that's, you know, Tara, we've talked about this before, one of the biggest pluses and advantages of 12 step communities is that it's sustainable. People can engage in a 12 step community long term if they choose. It's a sustainable pathway to support healing.

So when people are willing to see some long term benefit for their own growth, it pays off in huge dividends. And it saddens me. Of course, I respect people have the right to self determine how willing or unwilling they are to stick with that. But it saddens me when people cut short. When they back away, for instance, after disclosure, because really, they're just getting to the starting gate. The real exciting stuff and the growth comes after that.

So [00:39:00] typically, you know, the research does show on the addiction side - two to five years for people to get into solid recovery and sobriety. And I'm not aware, Tara, to be intellectually honest, I'm not aware of a like study or research finding with the betrayal trauma path. However, my observation clinically is that it's similar.

I would say, on average, there's various factors, of course, that contribute to the time - I would say two to five years, typically, for people to really deeply get settled and know the truth of what's going on and know themselves and where they're headed going forward. 

Tara: I know that our human nature is to want the quick fix, to want ease, and there's nothing easy or comfortable [00:40:00] about recovery work from betrayal, trauma, and sexual addiction. I love, though, that as I watch people who are really digging into recovery and have been on this road for a while, there's a shift. 

“I started this work because of my betrayal.” But as they continue it becomes, “This is how I progress. This is healthy living. That's what keeps me here is that there's progression here. There's connection here.”

I mean, and I speak specifically about 12 step in that regard. There are people who have been in the rooms of recovery for years and years, not because they're still dealing with that acute trauma, but because they recognize the personal benefit to themselves and an opportunity to serve those around them in a very authentic way.

So for those who are listening, if that two to five year window just feels like a gut punch, my invitation to you is: [00:41:00] Take it one day at a time, and a shift, even though this will always be work, like Jill said, it won't always be acute. The pain will taper off, and then at some point, there will be awareness of even the blessings of recovery work that go well beyond our primary relationship with our spouse. I am a beneficiary of the work that my parents continue to do in the rooms of recovery. That's beautiful. 

Jill: It certainly can. And there's an important clarification. It does not take two to five years to find relief. I noticed when people jump in, sometimes in days or weeks, there's a significant shift in the experience of relief, validation, support, some direction, education, does wonders. “Ah, okay, I can start breathing again.”

The room stops spinning. It's going to be okay. [00:42:00] But two to five years, I hope people listening can hear that in a validating way. It takes that long to get this deeply started because it is such a painful injury. If someone was saying, “Oh, three months, all done, all better,” that, I think, would be insulting.

Like, “Are you seeing me? Do you see how deeply I'm bleeding out with this trauma? So, I just would encourage people if that is like a gut check, a slap in the face to hear what seems like an eternity - please hear that to validate just how deep the pain is with these issues, and that these are not quick fix issues.

Sometimes it's important to remember that the very mentality that went into it, the building up of a sex addiction, that quick fix [00:43:00] mentality, we have to really be on guard for that. Both individuals, if we get into quick fixes, sometimes we're just mirroring and replicating the very thinking that got us, you know, especially the addict, into this problem. So taking a long view, being patient and surrendering and understanding, “What can I learn from this?”

And I loved what you said, and I've heard your mom speak about this, that when recovery work no longer feels like an add-on to my life, but it's just part of healthy living, boy, that's a rewarding place to be. You know, if my exercise, my walks feel like something I have to force myself to do every day, I have to really think about that versus it's just part of my lifestyle. It eases over time. 

Tara: Thank you for making that clarification. There is relief much sooner than five years. And thank [00:44:00] goodness. 

Jill: Right. Yes. 

Tara: Well, so for our final piece, seeking spiritual connection, this is such a vital one for long term healing. But I also know that individuals who have been betrayed by someone they love in a very close relationship can cause them to question their belief system and their relationship with the God of their understanding. In this process, they may have even experienced secondary trauma with a faith leader who may not have provided good support or good educated counsel. So tell me about your experience with this particular piece and perhaps how you help betrayed partners start seeking that spiritual connection again with the God of their understanding if that relationship has been strained. 

Jill: Thank you for that question. And I'm so grateful this is a [00:45:00] core aspect of the SA Lifelines program. I practice on the outskirts of Boulder, Colorado. The vast majority of my clients are not religious. Many of them are agnostic or atheist. And it's really key that when we talk about spiritual connection to start, at least, we're not talking about this in a religious context.

It's different. That's a different thing. Going back to what I said earlier, trauma disconnects. It can disconnect the body mind connection. We get dissociated. We also get dissociated spiritually. We can get very confused and thrown for a loop. That topsy turvy feeling of what I knew was reality, what I thought was true, is really thrown into question now.

And I regularly witness individuals [00:46:00] in spiritual crisis alongside their trauma. I think those more often than not go hand in hand because of that dissociating, disconnecting experience that trauma causes. So first you asked, how do I support people and getting on that path? Interestingly enough, some of that naturally and instinctively happens as we heal the trauma, as we help people get reconnected out of isolation, attuned again to their body, their emotions. So, some of that I see as a natural outgrowth of effective trauma work. Sometimes we have to do more heavy lifting if there's been religious trauma in the mix of that spiritual disconnection.

And I have deep compassion for individuals that have had that double [00:47:00] whammy - at the very time they've been betrayed by the person they're closest to. It's its own form of betrayal trauma if someone is religious, let's say, and they turn to a religious leader and they get a less than helpful, sometimes even harmful response. That combined, Tara, is just earth shattering.

That is a very, very deep wound. So I think we must approach this with great sensitivity and reverence and slowly unpack those pieces. But it is a core element of helping people reconnect in those ways. Because one of the reasons, there's many, but one, when we look at the research of the impact of pornography and sex addiction - one that shows up in the secular [00:48:00] research, these are not religious studies, is that there's less appreciation for the sacredness of life and sacred things in life.

That's really interesting to me. That even the secular research highlights the spiritual deadening that occurs. Which is one of the core principles of why 12 step focuses on surrender, of reconnection with a spiritual center, to reconnect with something bigger than ourselves. Because in addiction, if we just focus on that for a moment, we're becoming our own God, we're becoming our own higher power, we're spinning out in that.

And so learning how to reconnect to something bigger than ourselves is really at the core of addiction healing. Similarly in betrayal trauma work. I notice that when people do not have [00:49:00] either a formal belief system or even just a felt sense of something bigger than themselves in existence...I don't want to be misunderstood with what I'm about to say.

It's not that they cannot heal. I believe everyone has a potential for healing. We're wired for healing, but it's a slower process. My observation is it takes people longer and it's a trickier road for those that have no sense or connection to something bigger than themselves. So I say that with the utmost respect. It's a harder path.

Tara: Thank you. In my interview with Eddie Caprucci, we talked about how for many of us, yes, there is this rupture of our belief system and our understanding of who God is, if God is even there. And I think removing the shame from, if you're, [00:50:00]  in this space of, “I've been betrayed and I'm in a full on faith crisis. I no longer trust my faith community because I have experienced secondary trauma with a pastor or clergy member.” 

It is okay if that is the space that you're in, and you may need to go to ground zero to find that connection again. As you said, that's a very typical thing that you see with your clients - all this dissociation and all this rupture throughout their lives.

But if we're willing to work at it, the blessings and the gifts of recovery will be tenfold, a hundred fold if we can really reestablish that connection, a deeper connection than we've ever had, perhaps before. 

Jill: Agreed. And, you know, as we wind this up today, we can bring this full circle by connecting the spiritual connection to each and every one of those other ingredients.

And what I mean by that is, if we're experiencing a spiritual crisis [00:51:00] and that disconnection, a few things I want to say to those listening and encountering individuals in that space, is to remember that it’s tender. That it is its own sacred space and spot. And I think listening just really gives people a safe space to unpack, that it's real.

And so we need to be honest and humble as helpers. And also as the person experiencing that, to be real about it, be honest about it and not get hung up in the strings and pressure of people pleasing and showing up and perfectionism. It's messy. It's raw. And to be honest about that and humble in that like, “This is where I'm at. I'm angry. I'm enraged. I'm so disillusioned.”

[00:52:00] The principles we've talked about so far today, Tara, apply so readily to that spot of, “How does my honesty and humility, how do I be accountable and voice and be witnessed and not get into isolation?” I think that's the most dangerous spot - when we're feeling spiritually disconnected and we isolate. That is really a dark place. 

So when I say accountability, like get into connection, share your story, find the right people. That may take a while. As humans, we struggle with listening. So it may take a while to find the right person with the right ear and mind and heart to hear that story and help you unpack it.

But that can be done. And those experiences are real. And, I've had my own times of spiritual disconnect and struggle. I think that's also part of the [00:53:00] process and it's painful. It can be really lonely and confusing and painful. And that's also part of our healing walk, if we will allow it. 

Tara: Thank you. Thank you so much, Jill. I've enjoyed this conversation so much. And we like to close out with the same two questions with each of our experts. 

What would you tell a betrayed partner who's just starting this journey?  

Jill: There is hope. Healing is possible. There's never been more in the way of resources than there is right now. And you can do this. It will bring you to your knees a lot of days, but it's worth it. And healing work pays off in many different ways. And what a legacy we can give to children or others in our lives, if someone does not have [00:54:00] children. The world is a better place when we engage in healing work. So I would just want to be a voice of encouragement and a cheerleader to anyone starting out and also validate that I genuinely feel. It tugs on my heart when someone reaches out and I realize, ah, there's someone else dealing with this pain. That's a devastating pain and there's hope in healing. 

Tara:  And so on the flip side, what would you tell a betrayed spouse who's been walking this road for a while, been in the saddle for a while?

Jill: Rest, but don't quit. There's value in taking rests. And I would like to express my admiration. I have the deepest of respect for people that have walked this path for years, decades. That's a sacred walk, so my inclination would be to express my [00:55:00] gratitude, my admiration and to validate the importance of rest, that it can be unrealistic to keep that pace up. It's okay to step back and to engage other areas of life. 

Tara: Well, again, Jill, thank you so much for your time today. I'm deeply grateful for you for the great work that you continue to do in this field. Keep up the great work.

Jill: Well, thank you, Tara. A joy to be with you today. [00:56:00]