The Value of Therapeutic Disclosure & Tips and Strategies for Best Outcomes w/ Dan Gray

In this episode, host Tara McCausland welcomes Dan Gray to discuss therapeutic disclosure in the healing process for individuals affected by sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. Dan emphasizes the critical role of disclosure to help break the cycle of secrecy and shame surrounding addiction, highlighting the benefits of therapeutic disclosure for both the addict and their spouse. He explains the ideal circumstances for disclosure, including the involvement of therapists for both parties to prepare and guide them through the process. Dan outlines common pitfalls of informal disclosures and stresses the importance of professional assistance to navigate the complex feelings and consequences involved. Additionally, the conversation touches on the considerations for support people, such as family members and faith leaders, advising them to listen, support, and avoid pressuring the individuals involved. Dan concludes by offering hope and advocating for reaching out for support and assistance in facing these challenging situations.

To connect with Dan, you can reach him via phone or email. 
Phone:801-891-6857
Email: dgray@lifestarnetwork.org

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Dan Gray
• 2:09 The Importance of Therapeutic Disclosure in Healing
• 2:41 The Process and Benefits of Formal Therapeutic Disclosure
• 4:38 Understanding the Impact of Disclosure on the Husband
• 11:19 Exploring the Wife's Perspective on Disclosure
• 17:48 The Role of Therapy in the Disclosure Process
• 22:42 Navigating Pre and Post-Disclosure: Tips and Strategies
• 41:51 Support and Guidance for Couples and Their Allies
• 48:58 Final Thoughts and Resources

Transcript

Therapeutic Disclosure w/ Dan Gray

Meet Dan Gray

 [00:00:00] Dan Gray is a licensed clinical social worker specializing in addictions counseling. He has a master's degree in social work and is a certified sexual addiction therapist. He is also certified as an addictions counselor with the National Association of Forensic Counselors. He maintains a busy, private practice [00:01:00] lecturing regularly and providing training and consultation to numerous civic, religious and professional organizations throughout the country. He's the clinical director of the LifeSTAR Network program, which provides help for individuals and couples who are dealing with problems related to sexual addictions and compulsive behaviors. He has co-authored and edited two books, Confronting Pornography: A Guide to Prevention and Recovery for Individuals, Loved Ones and Leaders. Also Discussing pornography Problems with a Spouse: Confronting and Disclosing Secret Behaviors. Dan is married and the father of four. He enjoys fly fishing, hiking, biking, and basically anything outdoors.

Tara: Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery podcast. I'm your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm really excited to have here with me, Dan Gray. Thank you so much, Dan, for being here with me today. 

Dan: Hey, my pleasure, Tara. Thank you for asking me. It's an honor. 

Tara: Dan is actually a member of our SA Lifeline advisory board. [00:02:00] So in addition to being awesome and coming on the podcast, he's been a great help to the foundation for a number of years.

So thank you, Dan, for being a part of this important work. 

The Importance of Therapeutic Disclosure in Healing

Tara: So today our topic of discussion is therapeutic disclosure. In previous episodes, I have made a distinction between discovery and disclosure and, specifically therapeutic disclosure, which we know has unique value.

Dan's been doing this work for a really long time. I'm curious just on the offset, why do you feel like, Dan, a formal therapeutic disclosure is important in the healing process for individuals affected by sexual addiction and betrayal trauma? 

The Process and Benefits of Formal Therapeutic Disclosure

Dan: Disclosure is something that we've had at LifeSTAR, it's been in an evolving kind of process for many years. As we initially started this work, having informal kinds of disclosures, we realized that there were good disclosures and [00:03:00] unhealthy disclosures. And so over the years, we've developed a kind of a protocol and format that helps us then to keep our bearings so that we don't get too sidetracked by things that are going to be more disruptive for the couple than helpful. 

And maybe if I could just qualify a little bit too, I'm going to be addressing this by taking it from the context of what I'd consider to be the ideal format for a disclosure.

If I were the therapist working with the addict or I'd maybe refer to him as the husband for our conversation, the husband and the spouse, if we could talk about it in that context. I'd be working with the husband, helping him get prepared for the disclosure. I'd have his spouse be working with another therapist, a colleague generally that I do this with, that has experience with disclosure, [00:04:00] knows the format, knows what's going on, understands the process so that we're both on the same page together with it. 

And so we have this kind of working collegial coordination with the timing of this and the scheduling of the disclosure as well as the format of how we're preparing the husband and the wife for the formal disclosure. That we would have planned out probably in a number of weeks or months from the time we start with them.

So I just wanted to kind of give a context in terms of how I'm going to be addressing this too, Tara, if that's okay. 

Tara: Yeah, thank you. 

Understanding the Impact of Disclosure on the Husband

Dan: I think the benefits, the reason we do a formal disclosure, I'm going to address it first, the husband's perspective, and then from the spouse. And probably the primary of the four or five main points is that it breaks the silence and the [00:05:00] secrecy, because as I've said for many years, the secrecy and lies are the lifeblood of this addiction.

The addiction itself thrives in the darkness, secrecy. And so whatever we're able to do to break through those lies and create an open, clear format for the couple to be able to discuss these things. That's kind of the primary reason why we realized we needed to create a formal disclosure type of process.

And so for the husband, that's it. It's breaking through that secrecy, coming out of hiding, as we say, because staying in the darkness, staying in hiding is also perpetuating his shame. As we know, that shame is kind of the driving engine behind the addiction. So if we can turn the [00:06:00] lights on in that darkness and help him then breakthrough, that begins the process of reducing the shame which can also then reduce the possibility of ongoing relapses.

So it's good for his recovery process to be able to have this in a more open format, especially with his spouse. It helps him to practice authenticity because authenticity and openness in the relationship is critical for the development of trust down the road. And there's just no way of getting around it.

If he's not open and honest through the process, then trust is not going to be reestablished. And without trust, the relationship is going to fall apart. It helps him to feel, and this is kind of an interesting context that's not talked a lot about, it really sets the ground for him to truly feel his wife's love and caring for him in the long [00:07:00] term.

Because he's been hiding in this shame and he's more than likely always thinking, “Well, if she really knows me or really knew what I was doing, she wouldn't love me.” So it's difficult for him to really accept and feel her love because there's always that feeling that if she only knew, she wouldn't feel this way about me. So he has a hard time feeling it and truly embracing it and accepting. 

With the discovery, then, there's the lack, there's a whole lack of trust. And then she has a hard time really giving him love because she's always feeling kind of very tentative in her expression of love to him, because she's not sure if he's going to be around - “Can I really love this man that I've trusted all these years and now I can't?” And so she's going to be withholding her love and affection. 

[00:08:00] And so the disclosure process, it isn't the kind of magic pill that's going to cure everything by any means, but it lays the groundwork for true feelings of love to be expressed and to be accepted and for trust to really begin to be established. And also it provides a place of accountability, for the husband to have accountability for what he's done in the past.

And it sets the groundwork for future accountability, because now he knows how to do it, and he knows the importance, and he has a format through which he can then be accountable to his wife, to his therapist, to maybe ecclesiastical leaders if he's involved in any kind of religious community. And this is another kind of dynamic that's not discussed a lot too. That [00:09:00] for him, if he knows that he's made this commitment to be totally transparent and authentic and share with her all the past issues and also is making a commitment to be 100 percent honest in future, then in the future with any struggles or relapses or slips that he may have, it sets up the realization that “If I slip, I have to tell my wife.”

If there's still secrecy and he doesn't fully have that commitment of disclosing, then there's always just that little bit of wiggle room for him. He's got the foot in the door that says, “Well, if she's in a bad place, I'm not going to share it with her. If this is too much for her to deal with, the kids have been really bad this last week and [00:10:00] I just slipped.”

Well, that’s what I call a benevolent cop out. It's a cop out in the essence because he is using his benevolence as it were, or acting honorable, that he doesn't want to disturb her, and so doesn't disclose. 

If he has made his decision that he's going to fully open up and be transparent, that knowledge and that commitment can also be a deterrent for his acting out. When he has that choice, when he's feeling those cravings and he feels the desire to look at pornography or whatever his issues are, if he knows in the next 24 hours, he's going to be looking at his wife and seeing those tears in her eyes and feeling that sense of shame, if he knows that's what's going to happen, he's going to be less likely to then act out.  Does that [00:11:00] make sense? 

Tara: Yeah.

Dan: So those are kind of the reasons for the husband and there are others as well, but those are the main four or five elements that I've seen as being really critical issues and why we want to have the disclosure process for him. 

Exploring the Wife's Perspective on Disclosure

Dan: For the wife, for the spouse, there's been, as we know, such pain and loss. The discovery can charge a tremendous amount of trauma and feelings of betrayal, which raises her own questions about her own judgment. “Why did I even marry this man? How have I then believed him all these years? Where's my own judgment?”

Questioning that, wondering, “Am I not enough for him sexually?” All kinds of questions and pain that's associated with it. [00:12:00] And between them is the dissolving of trust. And so the formal disclosure process is a way to at least begin the foundation of building trust. And if she knows also that there's going to be a full disclosure, if the format has been set up, she has her therapist, he has his, they're working through the workbooks, getting ready for the disclosure, then she doesn't feel like she needs to constantly be the detective and constantly wondering what he's doing, looking at his phone, seeing if he's still slipping. Because it's not uncommon for the wife to become kind of obsessed with his obsession and lose sight of her own journey and the importance of her doing her own work.

If she is [00:13:00] able to feel settled, that his therapist is really working with him to have him be fully open and honest and in that preparation that's going to be happening in a few weeks or in a month or so, she can be more at peace - assured that he's going to be doing this and she doesn't have to be driving the process. She doesn't have to be the police, watching what he's doing and she can then focus more on her needs, on her own self care and doing the work that she needs to do. 

It also helps a wife work through that process of realizing that she's probably felt for a long time that something's wrong. Before discovery, she maybe was feeling that she was going crazy because she felt something was wrong in the relationship [00:14:00] and he's been maybe gaslighting her by telling her, “No, I'm fine. What's your problem? Don't worry. I've already told you, I dealt with these things before we were married and I haven't had a problem." But she just has this intuitive sense that something's off with him and the disclosure, of course, the initial revelation of things has created the trauma, but now preparation for disclosure can give her a sense that she's going to really understand why she's been feeling all of these things for such a long time.

Working through a formal process also helps guide her through, and it helps her prepare questions. Because that's a part of the preparation for a disclosure, is allowing the wife to share with her therapist the questions that she wants to have answered. Because in his narrative of his [00:15:00] disclosure issues, he may not be addressing some very specific questions that she has.

Which could be something like, “During the birth of our second child, I was in the hospital for days with complications. You didn't come visit. Were you acting out?” Those kinds of things that he may not be addressing in his formal disclosure because maybe he wasn't acting out during that time. And so it wouldn't be in his narrative.

So if she has very specific questions, it's going to be important for her to be able to share those with her therapist. Then we'll share it with his therapist and have him prepare to answer all of those questions either in the narrative of the disclosure or specifically directed to those questions during the time of the actual formal disclosure. 

It all [00:16:00] sets the stage for the authenticity and accountability, even on her part. Because as he's opening up, then she's being encouraged to also be candid and open. She more than likely has been a bit, perhaps, overly sensitive, thinking, “Well, I can't disrupt him too much. I can't disturb him. I can't let him know that I'm really maybe thinking about separation and divorce.” Or “I have these other questions about it and every time I bring it up, he gets angry. And when he gets angry, then he withdraws. And when he withdraws, he acts out.” 

So the cycle is that she ends up feeling responsible for his acting now and so she withholds and is not totally transparent with him about her own journey and the emotions and feelings that she's having. So the formal disclosure just kind of begins [00:17:00] that process of really opening things up. 

Dan: So hopefully that answered the question for you. 

Tara: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wanted to just reiterate some of the things that I felt were standouts for me.

I appreciate that you bring up that it really is in the silence and the secrecy where addiction thrives and disclosure is really going to help bring it all into the light, right? So the addictive behavior loses a lot of its power, just in the light of honesty. 

I appreciated that, but also that opportunity to practice the authenticity and openness which we hope will start again in the relationship. One of the thoughts that I had though, as you were talking, is there might be some people listening, thinking, “I could do this without a therapist.”

The Role of Therapy in the Disclosure Process

Tara: “I mean, my husband and I can just maybe prepare questions for each other.” What would your response be to someone who said, “We can do this without a professional or assistance,”? 

Dan: [00:18:00] I'm kind of therapy biased if I'm thinking about the ideal circumstances. Because I've seen it happen that way, Tara, and it adds to the risk that it's not going to go well. Can couples do it in a way which is going to be healthy for both of them? Sure. But there are certain dynamics that a therapist can help to provide for them, in warning and preparation to avoid certain pitfalls in terms of the preparation for it, and then what to do following the disclosure, some things that we'll probably talk about as well.

I would strongly suggest, if you have the time and resources, to have a therapist that can help guide you through this. I would strongly recommend it and have someone who has had experience with it. Therapists that are really good at doing [00:19:00] couples work, if they haven't really gone through a disclosure process, they might do things that are going to kind of set them up for premature failure with it. Maybe by  pushing things too quickly, encouraging things like forgiveness perhaps for the spouse. 

And that would be also a warning for any kind of ecclesiastical leader, to not be too quick to go, “Well, you need to forgive him now.” Forgiveness comes, but then what's the difference between forgiveness and trust?

Tara: Right. 

Dan: There's a big difference there. We could spend time on that one as well. Another thought with that, Tara, is that not everyone can access a therapist. And I surely understand that. There are workbooks. We've developed workbooks for the spouse and for the addict to use in that preparation. There are about 40 to 50 [00:20:00] page workbooks with exercises in them and guidelines for them to be able to follow.

And other clinics, other therapists throughout the country have also developed their own disclosure process. So I would be very glad to help provide some of that material for those that would want that. Or if you have another therapist that has developed their own disclosure protocol, then you could access those materials as long as the both of you are going to follow those pretty strictly. 

Tara: Yeah. Well, clearly you will be biased, but I can appreciate why you would be. I just felt like that was an appropriate question to ask. Because I think very often, as we're entering this world, we recognize the costs associated with this problem.

It can be very expensive to heal from addiction and trauma. And often there's kind of a do it [00:21:00] yourself or we can do this ourselves type of mentality. I kind of just wanted to get that out there, as you said, we want to provide the best environment for both spouses to heal.

I thought we could liken it to, let's say your house burned down or there was major structural damage and you had to start from the bottom up again, right, to rebuild your house. We probably wouldn't do that ourselves. If you were clearing out all the wreckage and you had to go in and make repairs to the foundation, you wouldn't do that yourself. You would go and you would seek out professional services. 

And I think similarly, when it comes to disclosure, we do well to receive help from those like you, who understand the parameters of how we can make this the best experience possible so that the foundation can be strong to build up from. You kept repeating that, that we're laying the groundwork for trust and healing and love and accountability to grow. 

That's really how I see this - that [00:22:00] we're building a strong foundation. And so we want this to be done right. So thank you for all that explanation. 

Dan: If people are considering doing this on their own, or it's also very common for couples to do a bit of their own disclosing process before they have a formal one set up. Because there's been a lot of, let’s say the wife is saying, “I need to know what you've done. I need to know if I'm in a safe place. Are you safe to be with our kids? Do you have an STD?” And so it's really common for there to be kind of a push for a disclosure process, even before the formal one is set up. 

Navigating Pre and Post-Disclosure: Tips and Strategies

Dan: And so if couples are thinking about doing that, how about if we just talk about some of those do's and don'ts real quickly?

Because they're about four or five different kinds of disclosures that I consider to be, I just call them unhealthy [00:23:00] disclosures. And one is what we refer to as a drive by or a staggered disclosure. That's where the husband impulsively reveals secrets, just on the fly when they're driving by a place and he's feeling some overwhelming shame. And so he just kind of says, “Oh, that's where I did this. That's where I did that.” It’s an impulsive revealing of the secrets.

Or  he divulges the secrets at inconvenient times. So they're driving and they're on their way to a dinner party and all of a sudden he's dumped this on her and she has all these emotions and now they're supposed to go in and be friendly and open with their friends. 

Also a husband can kind of hide behind incomplete and vague information. So he feels like he's disclosing, but he's really just giving her bits and pieces [00:24:00] because he's not really prepared to fully disclose everything to her yet. So it's kind of a piecemeal staggered thing where he omits important information.

He keeps changing his story because he maybe shares it with her when he's feeling really emotional. Then she asks him about it later. And then he remembers some other things about it. And now it sounds different to her. And then she distrusts him more because now he seems like he's even being more dishonest with her again.

He'll end up sounding like he's contradicting himself. So that can set up a really confusing type of a process for the wife, because she's not getting everything. She just keeps thinking, “Well, if I keep asking him questions, then he'll give me more.” And so that sets up what we look at as the interrogation disclosure.

That’s usually initiated by the [00:25:00] wife because she's wanting to know so badly what happened. So she has a tendency to ask questions and ask them repeatedly. He gets really frustrated. “Well, I already answered that,” but she's kind of testing him out to see if he's going to keep his story straight because sometimes he doesn't. She feels like she's got to be the interrogator and again, the detective. 

Then there’s the dump disclosure. And that's what I've referred to a little bit already, but where the husband has things welling up, he's been sharing things with his therapist. He feels some relief because he's been able to disclose some of those things. Maybe he's opened up to his church leader and now he goes home after talking to the therapist or the church leader, and he just says, “Okay, well, this is what I told him. I'm feeling all this relief. Because I finally said [00:26:00] everything.” And then he tells her when the kids have just gone down to bed and she's tired, doesn't have a lot of emotional reserves and all of a sudden he's dumping all this information on her and that can feel very, very overwhelming.

So a part of the formal disclosure process is preparation. And that's something that we were discussing before as well. It's a preparation, that's where the therapist and support comes into play. It's how to get ready for it, rather than just having these periodic, occasional, staggered, or dumping kinds of disclosures to go on, because those rarely go well. It causes a lot of friction when there's no preparation, and it can actually increase the feelings of distrust. 

Tara: Yeah. Thank you for bringing all those up. Those are the types of disclosures we want [00:27:00] to avoid, as you suggested. As you talked about the trickle disclosure, as it's kind of coming piecemeal, that can be extraordinarily traumatizing.

You can think of it like Dan Drake said, who I interviewed for another podcast episode. He talked about how that's like having multiple surgeries over and over. You get a little piece of information, then there might be some healing. And then there's the trauma again with more disclosure. And so I love this idea of the therapeutic disclosure being well prepared for so that we can just get it all out, clear out all the wreckage at one time, rather than lengthening out to the process and retraumatizing the spouse over and over. So thank you again for telling us the things we don't want to do.

So I am curious. Is there a point in a person's recovery journey where you would suggest that therapeutic disclosure is more appropriate than another time? Is there a point where you suggest to couples, “Let's [00:28:00] do maybe some safety and stabilization and then we do disclosure,” or does it just vary with each couple?

Dan: Well, the answer is kind of yes on both of them. It is going to be a bit variable with each couple. But there are some guideposts to use in making that determination as to when it's going to be most appropriate. Keeping in mind that hopefully, if the husband is working with a professional that knows about addiction and is able to understand what his history is, that his disclosure process should begin in the very first session that he has with his therapist.

Because in that process, there is a sexual history that's being discussed and processed. Where he's going through what types of behaviors he's been involved in, how [00:29:00] long it's been, what's the history of it, to what extent has his sexual behavior gone? Is it pornography strictly or has he had it in relationships with women? Is there infidelity? Is it strip joints? You know, just the whole gamut of his sexual behavior.

I let my clients know right up front that if he's not fully open and honest with me, we're not going to go anywhere. I can't treat what I don't know. And so that disclosing process has to begin right in the beginning of his therapy. And so gradually, hopefully, he's being desensitized a bit to that time when he's going to need to be disclosing this then to his, probably church leader if he's involved in a religious community. And then that is also then a segue into being able to [00:30:00] develop his full disclosure for his wife, because disclosing it to his wife is going to be more difficult and traumatic. But as he's going through that incremental process of disclosure, he will hopefully become less and less sensitive to it. 

Not to mention, if he's also in a group, in the group process, he's getting a chance to also be open and disclose and to share in that context as well. So the light is like a dimmer light. It's gradually coming on, a little brighter and brighter. Beginning with that first interview with this therapist. And then this, of course, leads to the formal disclosure process.

And so another thing with the husband is a therapist looking at his ability to deal with the disclosure. Preparing for the disclosure can be quite triggering because like in [00:31:00] our workbooks, he's needing to go through and identify various specific kinds of sexual behaviors that he's been involved in.

When he thinks of those things, of course, he's going to have an image come to his mind. So the preparation process can actually be a bit triggering for him. And so the therapy needs to also help him to deal with his triggers. Dealing with the visual triggers that he may have or the fantasy triggers that come up, but also dealing with the anxiety and stress that he's feeling, knowing that he's going to have to disclose these things to his wife. That can then bring up some more of those emotional triggers. 

You're probably aware of the acronym that we have, it’s BLAST. It stands for bored, lonely, angry, stressed, tired and shame. So it's BLASTS. [00:32:00] And the preparation for the disclosure can really trigger the anxiety and stress and fear of rejection, the fear of being alone.

And so therapeutically, until he's able to appropriately and adequately deal with these triggers, it's not a good idea to start diving into the preparation for the disclosure until he has a pretty good handle on managing those things. Now, that's the preparation for him.

For the spouse, because of the amount of trauma that's occurred, therapeutically we want to be looking at how she has dealt with these trauma responses and reactions. Is she learning how to mitigate the high levels of stress and trauma that she feels, the panic that she feels? Is she able to find her self regulation through regulating skills, with [00:33:00] meditation work? Or knowing how to do really good, healthy self care? 

He is hopefully having a group that's providing support. She needs to have support as well. If she's in a group, then establishing those relationships and having them be aware that the disclosure is coming up and helping her feel their love and support. And she's got that foundation. And so her ability to manage the trauma. 

She also is going to have triggers herself when they go through the disclosure. She may have already heard most of it. On the other hand, there may be some revelations that she's not prepared for that are going to be particularly traumatic. And if she hasn't been prepared to know how to deal with that dysregulation she's going to experience, then it's going to be really, really difficult to process. So that's a part of what the therapeutic work would be, to make sure that [00:34:00] she's ready for it as well as that he's ready for all the triggers that come up during that process. 

Tara: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So I'm curious then, if we've got all of this preparation happening before the actual disclosure, and then we have disclosure, what types of recommendations, suggestions do you give to partners, like immediately following disclosure? Because it is a difficult experience for both sides. 

Dan: Yeah, right. I think in part the way that it's going to be handled afterwards and the preparation that's going to be done is going to be determined also by what kind of preparations they've had beforehand.

This is where the preparation also is important in terms of setting up the disclosure in a way that's going to be as regulating as possible, emotionally. [00:35:00] So the way that we do it ideally is to have the couple come in separate cars to the disclosure so they're not driving together. We set it up at a specific time. We usually prescribed a good two hour block at least to do the disclosure. We help them prepare for the process. She's going to be able to sit with the therapist, her therapist, and kind of go over the process again, to help keep things calm.

He's going to do the same with his. Then the room is set up to her liking. It's done in her therapist's room, so it's a comfortable place for her. Having then even the details, the small details as to who's going to be sitting where, that she's going to sit probably where she feels comfortable, where does she want him? Straight across [00:36:00] from her while he reads his disclosure?

Does she want her therapist sitting next to her as a source of stability and support? Does she want me as his therapist sitting kind of on the side? It’s important for them to know that we as therapists are really concerned about  their physical and emotional welfare, that it's going to last a certain time, she's going to have her chance to ask questions, so she comes with a pad of paper and a pencil or we provide that, but make it a comfortable place.

And she can know that if she gets kind of dysregulated, that she can call a timeout, we take a break for a few minutes, she can step out, get some water, go to the restroom, come back, know that we're going to be watching very closely to help them with the processes that they're going through and the emotional reactions and responses they're having.[00:37:00] 

And that's then, Tara, kind of in preparation for the follow up, what do we do afterwards? Because we don't know exactly what's going to happen, so we have to have a plan A and a plan B in place. So it's important for both of them to have friends or their groups knowledgeable about when the disclosure is so that they have them on alert, kind of on the wings waiting for a call if they're needing support and she may need someone to drive her. So she may have wanted to have someone drop her off and someone to pick her up. If she's really had a lot of traumatic responses, she's not going to want to be driving, and going home to her kids. So it's good to have preparation for childcare so that she doesn't have to go home and just dive right into her duties and [00:38:00] responsibilities. 

And for him to have a place where he's going to be staying, that the two of them make some decisions. Okay, if we're really triggered here, then she may not want him to come home and sleep at home. And so what are the plans? If they don't make those plans prior to, then he's going to be set into a panic. “Oh, where am I going to stay? Gee, do I have to call my parents now?” The hotels are full around us. Where am I going to stay?”

Some couples really feel the need to have that space that's determined by the spouse. Other times a spouse may actually say, “This has gone how I had hoped, I'm feeling some compassion. I would really like to be together. I know we had planned to have you maybe stay someplace else, but I'd really like you to come home.” Or “I'd like for us to go out to [00:39:00] dinner to one of our favorite places now.” So having just some of those plans predetermined is really important. 

Tara: Well, I really love all that detail that you shared. Because I think when it comes to the body, for instance, we recognize that if we were getting a major surgery, there would be pre-op care. You'd have the surgery and then you'd have post-op care. And we all understand that and recognize the need for that. But when it comes to disclosure, I think many of us don't recognize that this is a significant event in the lives of the couple. 

Yes. We need to be highly prepared with that pre-op preparation and that post-op care for both parties. And I love how you mentioned having a plan A and a plan B. We really just don't know how that's going to work, how both parties are going to respond after a traumatic and difficult experience. Hopefully less traumatic [00:40:00] because we prepared for it well, but I really like how you framed that.

And I think as listeners are considering that, if we can think of it as a major surgery and we need preparation for before, and we need to have a plan for after. So thank you for explaining all that. 

Dan: That's right, Tara. Just one other point too in that preparation. If you're in a group where you're going to be sharing this with family members or friends, some who may have already gone through their own kind of disclosure with their own spouse, you're going to get a lot of comments, recommendations and direction from maybe some strong personalities as well. I would just suggest that you listen and see how that feels to you.

You don't need to feel pressure like, “You've got to handle it in a certain way,  this way that they did is the best way to do it. That's what you have to do.” Listen to the advice, get the [00:41:00] suggestions, write them down, and then have some good quiet time. Contemplate about that and if you're religiously inclined to pray about it, get some spiritual direction, see what resonates with your heart and what's going to work for you.

I've just seen it too many times where sometimes, especially the spouses, feel pressure, like they've got to handle it in a certain way or they're going to disappoint their family member or their friend or their group. This is your time. What somebody else thinks about it…I like that adage that I’ve tried to live by for a long time. “What you think about me is none of my business.” Now I want to get advice and I want to get some direction and guidance, but don't feel like you've got to worry about whether someone thinks you're doing it right or wrong.

Tara: Great counsel. 

Support and Guidance for Couples and Their Allies

Tara: And in fact, as you're talking about that, I was thinking about support people that might be in the circle of the couple [00:42:00] that are working through this issue. You have mentioned faith leaders and there might be close family members. And you have, again, already mentioned some things, but do you have some do's and don'ts for these, support people, other clinicians or faith leaders helping with this disclosure process?

Dan: I have to put myself in the place of someone who is hearing about someone that's close to me, that's going through this. There are probably some family members or friends that are so wanting to protect their sister or protect their friend or to protect their daughter and they have some really strong feelings about the husband.

I've seen where this happens, where there's already a bias that he's a rotten guy. They really want her to leave him and sometimes there's [00:43:00] purposeful or inadvertent pressure that's placed on her to make those kinds of decisions. And so in preparation for the disclosure, it can be, “Well, if you find this out, if you find that out, well, I sure hope you're not going to stick around. I sure hope you're ready just to leave him.”

Boy, I would be so careful not to go down those roads. Talk to her, help her to feel that you're a support to her, ask her if she would like your opinion, rather than just volunteering, you know, impulsively or spontaneously. See if she wants you to give her some suggestions or advice. Help her to understand that you're going to value her judgment. You value her ability to make her decisions in accordance with her own conscience and her own mind. Otherwise, she feels like you don't think that she is emotionally stable enough to make a good [00:44:00] decision. Let her go through that process. You may give your thoughts, your opinions, but be careful about what you're recommending. 

I advise the same things to bishops in the LDS faith or a priest from the Catholic faith or other church leaders - to be careful about taking sides too quickly without knowing about the other person and having a good discussion. I've had some church leaders that will hear first the story from the husband and the husband may have some feelings about his wife, that she's been maybe unavailable sexually, or she's been kind of cold emotionally in the relationship, or she's not very attentive to his needs. And the church leader can be a bit biased and then make some of his recommendations [00:45:00] to the husband in accordance with his report. He needs to call the wife in and talk to her and get her perspective. 

Understanding both sides is so critically important and vice versa. If she goes in first, then she can kind of create a perspective or view that this is just a rotten guy that has ruined her life and their marriage, and she doesn't think he'll ever change. How could he be lying to her all this time and lying to you too, church leader, and so that can create a bias. And I would just say to any supporting staff, as it were, just listen to both sides, listen carefully, don't be too quick to make recommendations as to what they ought to be doing.

Hear what the real story is from both perspectives, and I think I [00:46:00] already kind of referred to or implied this before. But the whole thing around forgiveness and trust. It's very difficult to start trying to work to forgive someone when you're still in the clutches of trauma and pain. And to kind of set that up can make a spouse in particular feel unwarranted shame. “I'm a forgiving person, but I just can't do it yet.” And then they feel guilty because they're not able to forgive quickly. Forgiveness will come over time. 

But he also needs to be able to learn how to develop that trust so that forgiveness is more naturally experienced through the process. And disclosure can help that process take place. Trust usually takes [00:47:00] longer than forgiveness. Some will say, “Well, gee, you said you forgave me, but you're still not trusting me.” Well, that's pretty normal and natural. 

If someone were to say, embezzle, if I had my CPA embezzle money from me I'm hoping that I'm going to be able to forgive him. But I don't know that I'll ever leave my money with him. I'd have to really feel a lot of trust and he'd have to earn that trust back before I could really fully trust. So trust has to have experience and time on its side. So she needs to see over time that he is trustworthy and she needs to have enough time to feel that she's given it enough time for him to fully be able to create that trust and feel that he's not [00:48:00] continuing to have secrets. And that's why the disclosure process is so critical. 

Tara: Right. Such good counsel. Thank you so much for addressing our support staff, as you put it. 

Well, before I ask you the last question that we ask all of our guests, if people want to connect with you, Dan, where's the best place to do that, to find you?

Dan: I'm happy to post this in the show notes as well. I'll give you my direct cell number: 801 891 6857. 

Tara:  And we'll also post your email address associated with LifeSTAR, but I suspect that there will be some people that might have some follow up questions or are interested in your workbook. So thank you so much. A direct line to Dan Gray is something to be appreciated. 

Dan: Well, this has been such a helpful interview.

Final Thoughts and Resources

Tara: And as I said, we always [00:49:00] end with these last questions, Dan, which are, “What would you say first to the newcomer, someone that's just starting this pathway of recovery? And what would you say to someone that has been walking this path for a while?” 

Dan: Okay. First thing that comes to my mind, Tara, is to have hope. This can be so very devastating and discouraging and feels really dark. And please know that many, many have gone through this and have found tremendous amounts of healing through the process. So have patience, have hope, and know that as you strive to get help and assistance, that if you'll reach out to others. 

Also, these problems, and it isn't just for the husband that is dealing with this, these issues and struggling, that feels the shame. Many spouses feel [00:50:00] shame as well. There's the shame that they feel because of their husband's behaviors. And now people know about the feelings of, “Well, I should have known better.” Like I was talking about earlier. And so it's not uncommon for a wife to withdraw and pull away, to go underground. And that then adds to the loneliness and isolation, which is so toxic when it comes to dealing with these issues. 

So, have hope that you're going to make it through this if you then reach out and get help. Don't try to do this by yourself. Get help from people that you trust, that you love and that you feel have had some maybe experience with this as well and get some good direction, get your support system.

And if you have a belief in a higher power, God, some will actually kind of [00:51:00] withdraw from that higher power too. This is the time to reach out. This is the time to look for guidance and direction on a deep spiritual level as well. So those are the things that come to my mind right off, Tara.

Tara: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much Dan for your time today. We appreciate you. Appreciate the great work that you've been doing for years in this arena. So know that we're so grateful for you here at SA Lifeline. 

Dan: Oh, thank you. And please know how much value I place on you and SA Lifeline and all those that have been involved.

I've referred many good people to your program and the reports are just very, very consistently positive. And so thank you for the work that you do. 

Tara: Thanks. Thanks Dan. [00:52:00]