Step 6 - Speaking From Scars, Not from Open Wounds w/ Brady W

In this episode of the Pathway to Recovery Podcast, host Justin B. guides listeners through step six of the 12-step recovery program with guest Brady W. Justin shares his experiences as a recovering sex addict and introduces Brady, who discusses his decade-long journey battling addiction to lust and his recent recovery with SAL 12 Step. The episode dives into Brady's personal insights on character defects like dishonesty, impatience, and selfishness, and how he has worked to overcome them through his higher power and community support. Justin and Brady also discuss the importance of willingness in recovery, the transformative power of community sharing, and offer advice to both newcomers and veterans in the 12-step program.

00:00 Introduction to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast

00:52 Meet Brady: A Journey of Recovery

02:08 Understanding Lust Beyond the Sexual

02:57 Steps of Recovery: An Overview

04:09 Brady's Experience with Steps 1-5

06:33 Diving into Step 6: Character Defects

15:54 The Importance of Willingness in Recovery

27:56 Healing Families Through Individual Recovery

38:24 Advice for Newcomers and Old Timers

40:12 Closing Thoughts and Encouragement

Transcript

Speaking from my scars and not my wounds: Step 6 with Brady W

[00:00:00] Justin B: Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I am Justin B. I am a son of an all powerful, perfectly loving God. And a sex addict living in recovery. Grateful to be one of the hosts of this podcast. Tara McCullough and I get to co-host this really cool opportunity to share experience, strength, and hope both from the addict and betrayed side. Tara, as well, does a lot of interviews with professionals, counselors and therapists who give their perspectives.

[00:00:28] And I think this is a neat service that we can share out there. I am super excited to continue this series that we are doing on the steps of recovery with one of my, I call him a friend in recovery, Brady W. We're going to be talking about step six today. But first of all, I'd like to have him introduce himself and tell us just a little bit about why he's in the rooms of SAL and we'll go from there. 

[00:00:52] Brady W: Hey, Justin, happy to be here with you today. Yeah, I appreciate it because I call you a friend too. You were in the first SAL meeting that I joined. So, we have that connection. I identify as an addict to lust and all things that that entails.

I started my recovery journey probably close to 10 years ago, with a lot of starts and stops. And then my latest round of recovery started in 2022, when I found SAL and truly threw myself into that program, and it changed my life. 

So, a brief history of Brady and acting out was that I was introduced to pornography and sexual experiences at a very young age, somewhere around 10, and it has been a lifelong battle since then. And because of SAL and 12 steps I have found some semblance of a happy, joyous, and free life. 

[00:02:01] Justin B: Thank you for sharing that. And I love how you said, “I'm an addict to lust and everything that lust entails.” I'd like to dive in there just a little bit. Maybe this is your experience too, but sometimes I think that lust is only sexual in nature, but I find lust in a lot of other areas of my life. Have you experienced that where lust after something else, other than what we would typically say is sexual kind of dominates your life, if you let it?

[00:02:28] Brady W: Yeah, and that was, getting into step six, a little bit, one of my character defects especially early on in recovery was greed, and lusting after money and the things that that would bring. And so, yes, I have seen I guess some offshoots of lust, if that's what you want to call them.

[00:02:50] Justin B: Oh, love that. Yeah. Thanks for going there. And I think we'll dive into those character defects a little bit more as we move along here. As mentioned at the top we are going through each of the steps of recovery one at a time. I'm switching off between the addicted and the betrayed in each of these steps and I'm grateful to be here on step six.

What I'm going to do just for the benefit of all those listening is I'm going to read through each of the first six steps and when we get to step six, we'll pause there and we'll have a discussion on Brady's and my experience in step six and what that means in our recovery and how we approach it.

So here are the 12 steps of SAL. Step one, “We admitted we were powerless over sexual addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

[00:03:46] 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.” And step six, “We're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.”

So Brady, real quick, why don't you take us through your experience in working steps one through five? Just summarize that and what you learned from that, and then we'll jump into step six. 

[00:04:15] Brady W: Yeah, so I guess a short version of steps one through five is that it took me a while. It took me probably six months or so to get through those first five steps. Step one for me was amazing and specifically the step one inventory that some programs do, for this reason, I knew completely that my life was unmanageable and out of control, which is what brought me to recovery. The reason step one and a step one inventory for me was so impactful was sharing that inventory and then feeling so much love from other men in recovery, having gone through similar experiences after sharing the worst parts of myself. 

So I would say step one was a huge jumpstart to my program and recovery. And I think that's probably what gave me the momentum to continue, to move on to the God steps of two and three. That's still a daily challenge for me. My relationship with my higher power has lots of peaks and valleys. But I guess early on in recovery, relearning who God was to me, that was big and then the inventory. 

And I guess you can't really talk about step six without four and five. I think that's the foundation of six and seven, you doing that fearless, moral inventory and looking at all aspects of yourself is scary. [00:05:58] And it was a scary and long process for me. And again, doing that with a sponsor and then sharing those things. Him not batting an eye about all the things that I told him, again, was proof to me and was a testament to me of if this man, imperfect as he is, like he's a saint, but imperfect as he is, is able to love me. It showed me that God, [could] even more so. And then step six, which I guess is what we want to focus on. 

[00:06:33] Justin B: Let's pause right here at the step five and then jump into step six in just a minute. I love how you mentioned that, without steps four and five, step six really is empty because step four and five kind of reveal to me those defects of character that I'm becoming willing to give over to God, right?

As you did your steps four and five, give us a couple of examples of character defects that really screamed out at you. You've mentioned greed. What are some other ones that just screamed at you, either you weren't aware of or you were trying to cover up with other things in your life?

[00:07:10] Brady W: My sponsor had me do a step six inventory and the first one on that list was dishonesty. I thought I was a pretty truthful person and I think outside of my addiction, I thought I told the truth and it turns out I told a lot of little white lies to try and make myself look better. And oftentimes they were lies that benefited me like zero percent, no benefit at all. [There is ] no reason to tell that lie. And that was a hard pill to swallow. 

[00:07:53] Justin B: Yeah. And this is, still to this day, one of those things I've got to realize is that I'm a big fat liar. How does that make you feel when you realize, “Man, how deep does this dishonesty go in my life?” What were some of the eye opening things that came from that? 

[00:08:09] Brady W: I'm glad that the program is set up the way that it is to work it through with a sponsor, because my sponsor was able to show me those blind spots that I have and dishonesty was definitely one of those. It was, like you said, eye opening to realize how pervasive dishonesty was in my life, work and the relationship with my family and just all aspects.

One example that keeps coming to mind is just lies of omission. I was very good at lies of omission and felt okay with it because I wasn't telling the whole truth. I wasn't explicitly lying and it was so easy to justify those ones for me.

[00:08:59] Justin B: And how do you try and do better on those lies of omission today? If you're like me, you're still not perfect at it. I only want to tell what's necessary, but sometimes I have to say, "You know what, whether this is necessary or not, it needs to be said.” So tell me how you approach that in your life today. 

[00:09:17] Brady W: I think for me, it's been a lot of open conversations with my spouse. She's told me that she would much rather hear the hardest truth than the smallest lie. That was big for me, just trying to understand the impact, even a small lie of omission would have. And the program talks about practicing rigorous honesty. So one day at a time, in each decision I make, I try to keep that at the forefront of my mind and it's helped a ton. 

[00:09:48] Justin B: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I love what you said there that your wife said something to the effect of, “I would rather hear the hardest truth than the smallest lie.” That's a tough thing to put my hands around and say, “Man, what if the hardest truth is hurtful?”

But that's really powerful. Thank you for sharing that. What's another character defect that kind of jumped out at you that maybe surprised you? 

[00:10:13] Brady W: One that maybe I still struggle with too, is selfishness. Again, I felt like a giving person. I didn't feel selfish and then realized what selfishness was and how that is playing out in my life. That again was a hard pill to swallow, realizing how selfish, and I think in recovery language it is, I wanted to run my own life. I wanted a life based on self will and [had to try] to turn that will over to God. 

[00:10:54] Justin B: Those are big ones. And I think those are some of the biggest roots of what we turn into addiction is trying to cover up those things and, and trying to fill my life with things that, “Hey, this will make me happy. If I can just achieve this, then I'll be happy and everything will be well and everybody else will be happy.”

Anything else that comes to mind that you'd like to disclose or share with us about character defects before I jump into the next little portion here? 

[00:11:24] Brady W: One character defect that I wanted to share just rereading through my step four or step six inventory that was really high up on my list was impatience. I was easy to anger and easily bothered by and usually with those closest to me, specifically my spouse. The little things would set me off. I was super impatient with her and with my kids. 

And working through that program, realizing, again, the effect, the impact that had on her and taking it to my higher power, being willing to take that impatience. I recognize now that this is affecting me, affecting my relationships and taking it to my higher power, and asking Him to remove it, I’ve seen that change over the course of working my recovery. 

I now no longer fly off the handle when my wife leaves the oven on or the fridge door open and those things used to set me off and were easy justification to act out in the past and then for anger early on in recovery. So that's my testament to step six actually working in my life. 

[00:12:50] Justin B: Love that. Thanks for sharing that miracle. That's really cool. And we'll get into more miracles of the program here. So I used to think Brady, that step six and seven was comprised of only two paragraphs in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. But I've recently added a third paragraph from the previous page on page 75. I want to read this and then I want to get your take on this and see what your experience with this was, whether it looked just like this or not. 

It's on page 75, the last paragraph and it reads, this is after I've taken step five with my sponsor and I've just “…uncovered, illuminated every twist of character, every dark cranny of the past.” The next thing it says is, 

“Returning home, we find a place where we can be quiet for an hour, carefully reviewing what we have done. We thank God from the bottom of our heart that we know him better. Taking this book down, the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, from our shelf, we turn to the page which contains the twelve steps. Reading carefully the first five proposals, steps one through five, we ask if we have omitted anything, for we are building an arch through which we shall walk a free man at last. Is our work solid so far? So we're asking ourselves these questions. Is our work solid so far? Are the stones properly in place? Have we skimped on the cement put into the foundation? Have we tried to make mortar without sand?”

So as I read that paragraph in preparation for what I always thought was step six, the starting of step six, did you have an experience where afterwards you went and you thought for a little while and reflected on your inventory and your step five to see if they were complete and if so, what did that look like?

[00:14:35] Brady W: Yeah and again, I think that comes from a wise sponsor. So before working step six, he sent me this list of questions from the big book and we read through them and, yeah, it took some time on those first five steps to make sure the work was solid and that foundation was set. So that was actually my experience too. And again, I think that foundation is important, because without revealing all of those twists of character, those character defects, I think step six is null and void. 

[00:15:15] Justin B: All right, now I want to read basically step six, where I thought step six started until fairly recently, and this is at the top of page 76 of the big book, it says, 

“If we can answer to our satisfaction,” answer those questions that I just read there, “we then look at step six. We have emphasized willingness as being indispensable. Are we now ready to let God remove from us all the things which we have admitted are objectionable? Can He now take them all, every one? If we still cling to something, we will not let go. We ask God to help us be willing.”

So Brady, as I read through that, talk to me about the importance of willingness in this.

[00:15:59] Brady W: I know for me early on in recovery, willingness was a lifeline because doing it sounded hard, but I could at least come willing and it was a good place to start. So I think, like it says, willingness being indispensable. That was definitely the case for me. And, if not, there's even a step below that - I can ask God for the willingness. So I am just super grateful for that insight of recovery. I can start somewhere with the willingness and if not, [by] asking for willingness. So there's always somewhere as an addict [where] I can start.

[00:16:41] Justin B: Do you think that you have come to a place in your life or do you think there is a place in one's life where willingness is no longer applicable where it's, “Eh. I've done it all. I can now move forward with what I got. I don't need to be willing because I'm good.” What are your thoughts on that? 

[00:16:57] Brady W: I think it's a trick question. I think you always have to have the willingness. I think obviously without that, there's not going to be any action involved if you're not willing to do it. But I think maybe it changes. Maybe I come to a point where I trust God more and maybe that falls more into asking for willingness. Maybe my willingness just comes more naturally. 

[00:17:20] Justin B: I love how you said, “Maybe I come to a place where I trust God more,” and I think for me and what I'm learning is that willingness develops into trust, it's this progression. “Yeah, God I guess I'm willing to take these steps here.” And as I take those steps and I see the results of them , that willingness then becomes trust. “Okay, God, I guess that's what you're saying. Let's go. I trust you,” and I think that's a cool evolution from praying to be willing to [just being] willing.

And there may be other steps in the middle or beyond, I don't know, but I think that's really cool. Any further thoughts on that, Brady? 

[00:18:03] Brady W: Yeah, I guess thinking about one of the sponsees that I have now who is currently working the program and he's in a spot right now where he knows what he wants to change but he's not quite there yet. So watching him work through that - “Well, I'm praying for willingness now.”

And in some of the things he's, “Well, yeah, now I'm willing and now I'm letting it go.” So just watching the program in action through others has been pretty cool too, to see it work the same way it's worked for me has been a cool experience.

[00:18:36] Justin B: That's really cool. Is there any area in your life that may be not directly related to addiction that you are currently seeking the willingness to to follow what you believe God is inviting you to but you're like, “I gotta pray for the willingness in this.” You're hesitant in that area. 

[00:18:54] Brady W: Yes. I'm even hesitant to ask because again, it goes back to selfishness. I don't want to give it up. Right now it's for my time and my selfishness with my time. There are things that I want to do, knowing that there are probably more productive things that I could be doing and I don't want to give up. And I've worked with my therapist, he called it sleep hygiene.

[00:19:21] Justin B: Sleep hygiene? 

Brady W: Yeah. Sleep hygiene. 

Justin B: You're going to have to talk about that. 

Brady W: Getting a healthy, appropriate amount of sleep for yourself. And because we put our kids down, we have two younger kids, so my wife and I, that's our alone time after the kids go to bed. And I want to maximize that time and usually that entails staying up way too late, and then it affects my morning. And so talking about sleep hygiene and making it a maybe a boundary, maybe more of a priority to get a healthy amount of sleep so my next day is productive. And for me, when I don't, my morning routine, which is usually my time with God, is greatly affected.

And so again, I go back to the selfishness. I don't want to give up that time with my wife to do things that we enjoy doing. And, that's where the self will maybe is overriding God's will for me right now in my life. 

[00:20:28] Justin B: Is that something that you work together on with your wife? Or is this a Brady thing that you're trying to work on right now?

[00:20:35] Brady W: I think both, but mostly me. I don't think it affects her as much. She's good at knowing and oftentimes doesn't have to wake up as early as I do. So for her to stay up that late isn't as impactful as it is for me. So, mostly a Brady thing, but I think she's aware of it. 

[00:20:56] Justin B: How has working with your wife on character defects helped illuminate some of those blind spots also. Have you ever gone to her and said “Hey, honey, what are some character defects that I have that maybe I’m blind to?” Have you ever asked her that question? And how did that go when you do something like that? 

[00:21:15] Brady W: I haven't in a long time. So I think going back and looking at dates preparing for this conversation, it was December or November of 2022 when I first worked through step six, and that was one of the daily activities that my sponsor gave me.

So trying to recall that conversation, I think the one that came up for her was the impatience and just being quick to anger. I think I recognized it and I didn't like it, but I didn't know how to deal with these tough emotions that came up when  she would leave the hose on, or the oven on, or the door open, just those little things. I didn't know how to deal with what I was feeling, and I think that's what she brought up and so I know for her that's been the biggest change in recovering Brady that she's seen.

[00:22:13] Justin B: Now I'm going to jump into some scary territory here right now, and I'll be the voice on this, exercise of asking your spouse, “Hey, what are some character defects that I have that maybe I'm blind to, or maybe are a bigger deal than I may see?” I think that's a really powerful exercise. But if I, as the wife, am going to the husband and saying, “Hey, here's some character defects that are blind spots,” and doing it without them asking, that could cause some issues and cause some defensiveness and not go over very well.

[00:22:44] But what I love about that exercise that you talked about there, Brady, is it's you willingly going to your wife and saying, “Hey. I'm working on trying to figure out some character defects. I've listed some here, but I know that I probably have some blind spots that you were well aware of. I'm now open to hear one or two of those right now.” I think that's a healthy way to go about that. Brady, what are your thoughts on what I just shared there? 

[00:23:13] Brady W: I guess my perspective is, as the addict partner and not the betrayed partner, I would shy away from approaching your spouse with anything along those lines of “this is maybe what you should be doing.” I think all of us have to be in a place, like you said, of willingness to change. And for me, I do not like being told what to do or how I should be doing something. And so if I'm not willing and I hear some unsolicited advice, it doesn't go over well. And so yeah I share those same thoughts.

[00:24:01] Justin B: Yeah, very good. All right. So let's jump into step six a little bit more. Here are some of the questions: “Are we now ready to let God remove from us all the things which we have admitted are objectionable? and then the next thing, If we still cling to something we will not let go, we ask God to help us be willing.”

We've talked a little bit about that right now in your time with your wife after the kids go to bed. Looking back originally when you first came through the steps, was there something that you still clung to at that point that you would not let go of? Maybe you have become willing to and have worked those steps and feel good about that?

[00:24:42] Brady W: Yeah, I would say for me, they were hand in hand. Defensiveness went hand in hand with my impatience. Oftentimes when I heard any sort of criticism, or even if it was something that felt like criticism, I got defensive. And that's still my natural response. But because of working the program, working with others, being more open with my wife, I recognize now when that comes up and sometimes it still is the first thing that comes out, but I recognize immediately that that was defensive and I'm able to admit that I was wrong and try to make amends for that. So, again, just a fruit of the program of recovery is that I can change and I have changed. 

[00:25:40] Justin B: Thank you for sharing that miracle. And I think that is a miracle. For me, the natural response is defensive too. When somebody seems to come into my space and say something that makes me look or feel less than, immediately I want to defend, whether it's pointing the finger somewhere else or deflecting or pointing the finger right back at the person accusing me. 

And talk to me about how that process looks when you recognize it. Do you have this, maybe a process in place that you go, “Oh, wait, I'm seeing this. And now here's a process that I go through to make that right.” 

[00:26:16] Brady W: Yeah, I think initially, if I catch it before. I had a wise friend tell me about the power of the pause. Here's the stimulus, if that's what you want to call it, here's the trigger, to lengthen that pause in between the time of the trigger and my response. And that's been huge. Because I'm taking time in between the stimulus and the response and my brain has time to catch up with what I'm feeling. 

And I guess maybe on the other hand, when I don't take time to pause and the defensiveness comes out, or I recognize where I'm wrong, I think probably my process is, and maybe it's come with time, I'm now more aware, the self awareness is increased. I'm aware when I am wrong. Almost immediately [I know] that probably wasn't right. 

And sometimes it does still take some time to admit it. I think immediately I can admit it to myself, I'm just not ready to say it out loud. But it doesn't take long now for me to go through that process of, “Oh, I was wrong. Now I can make amends, however that is,” and most often it's with my spouse. I think that's because that's who I interact with most. “I'm wrong. Now I can go to my spouse and admit that I was wrong and try to make amends for it”. 

[00:27:56] Justin B: The title of the SAL book is SAL: Recovering Individuals, Healing Families. How in your life have you seen some of that? The recovering of the individual that you've shared a little bit about but let's go deeper into the healing of the family. How have you seen and experienced healing in the family as you are trying to work your recovery?

[00:28:20] Brady W: I was just reading through my list of character defects early on in recovery and one of them was I was unloving and I think mostly because I was so numbed out to any emotion. I didn't like any emotion and that's why I chose to use my drug of choice. I didn't want to feel anything and especially deep in the addiction I didn't want to feel anything. 

I was sick and tired of who I was and so I used acting out to cover that up and it took me a long time to learn, and I think I had to learn how to love myself and, and start there. And it took me a long time, but I would say, in the broadest 10, 000 foot view, I learned how to become loving and feel emotions and be present through working recovery. I think with that, it's because I'd learned how to be in touch with myself and my emotions and allowing myself to feel those. 

[00:29:29] Justin B: Yeah. And you said that, that wasn't an overnight process. Let's talk to a newcomer right now, about being patient with that process. Why is it important to not have the expectation that all of a sudden I'm going to be able to be emotionally mature and feel things and respond to them, react to them, in a helpful way? Why is it important for the newcomer to not have those unrealistic expectations?  

[00:29:58] Brady W: I think for me, because it was discouraging to have that expectation of “I want this to be immediate,” and then it did not happen was discouraging. It made me feel like recovery wasn't working. 

And again, I’ll go back to the fact that working with a sponsor is so important because he can point out another blind spot that I have that this isn't an overnight process and immediate process. This is progress not perfection and and as long as we're striving one day at a time, then that's what's important. It’s less about where we're at and more about the direction we're going. 

[00:30:42] Justin B: Thank you Brady. Is there anything else on step six that you feel is important that we cover, that maybe we haven't gotten to yet?

[00:30:51] Brady W: I think it’s to reiterate that it starts with willingness. And  step six seems so easy. Like you said, it’s one paragraph in the big book, it seems like a simple step and I guess maybe boiled down, they all do. For step six, it seems so easy. Easy to say, harder to do.

My thought was, speaking to the newcomer, but something that I've learned is one, it's okay to have character defects. That's part of the human experience,  having those character defects. I think it's in Step Into Action, part of working step six I'll just read that if that's okay. 

It says, “Although we may have initially wanted all our defects eliminated,” again, going back to the immediacy of it, we wanted to have all our defects eliminated, “many of us came to the realization that our defects can teach us humility and wisdom.

And, that's what I was touching on. It's okay to have character defects as part of the human experience. Overall, it was the addiction as a whole, a large part of that addiction was character defects. That's what brought me to my higher power and continues to do so. Every day I get to realize what character defects are cropping up and I get to take them to my higher power and build my relationship with Him. That would be my experience, strength, and hope of step six.

[00:32:29] Justin B: I love that Brady. And as you were just saying, “Hey, I get to take these things to my higher power. I get to take these things to the God of my understanding.” Take yourself back three years. Would you have ever said something like that in your life before? “I'm just giving everything to God.” Is that something that ever would have really even crossed your mind? 

[00:32:49] Brady W: Cross my mind? Yes, because I heard people in my life, my church community talk about things like that. It honestly made me so angry to talk about “I'm just gonna take it to God” or “I'm happy for my trials,” sayings like that would make me so angry. Because I felt like “You're not going through what I'm going through. You would not say that if you were in my shoes.” But now, having done that, having actually taken it to God and worked on it and through it with Him, I can honestly say that, yeah, I'm happy to strengthen my relationship with my higher power through these trials and tribulations and character defects.

[00:33:36] Justin B: One of the promises in the big book for working recovery, and it's a ninth step promise, it's not right here in step six, but I want to ask you about this. “We will not regret our past, nor wish to close the door on it.” How have you seen that promise come true in your life?

[00:33:52] Brady W: I guess first I would say it definitely has. Initially, working recovery, I just wanted to move on from this part of my life. Like it says, I wanted to shut the door. Lock him in the closet, I don't have to worry about all the things that I've done, or gone through. And now being where I'm at in recovery, I share some of the worst parts of myself with people I barely know.

And it's because it helps me remain sober and connected. I'm able to share experience, strength, and hope. And I'm able to hear that from others. So yeah, I would say definitely that is a promise that is being fulfilled for me right now. 

[00:34:34] Justin B: I love the opportunity that you and I and others who are striving to really work our recovery get, to take a call from a newcomer and share our story with them. The things that, man, I would never tell anybody and I don't even know them, I'm not even sure I remember this guy's first name from the call. 

He said “Hey, this is whoever,” I'm not even sure I remember his first name from when he introduced me and I'm spilling everything to him and then they open up and spill a lot to me, too. And it's a beautiful thing to be able to not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. Wisely, I'm not going to go, you know, say it over the pulpit in church or, go stand out on the corner and yell my past to everybody, but when God directs it, it's a beautiful thing to be able to do.

Anything else you want to add to that, Brady? 

[00:35:24] Brady W: I think that's the power of community and specifically maybe it's just a 12 step community and that's what I'm a part of and that's what I know. I think you've described it as a superpower. We have this secret ingredient of sharing our past and I've heard it called “speaking from my scars and not my open wounds.”

I think there's importance in that. But it's so powerful, the strength that I get from being able to share with others and having others share with me and just having an open and real and connecting conversation has honestly changed my life. That's probably been the biggest ingredient in my recovery, the power of the group.

[00:36:15] Justin B: Well, you just gave me the chills when you said speaking from my scars and not my open wounds. I've never heard that before. Thank you for sharing that, Brady. That was powerful. And that's going to go on my wall of quotes because that just really hit me hard. I think I want to dive there for just a minute and I'm going to share just a little bit on what is hitting me with that.

Yes. I am wounded. Yes, I have battle scars that have come from my own stupidity, from the reality of mortality from others and from myself, but those battle wounds have been healed over. But there's a remnant, there's a scar. I remember somebody once told me one day, “We may get to sit around a campfire with all of these heroes from the past who have done amazing, crazy things and share with them our battle stories and they'll look to us and say, ‘Wow, that's super cool,’ while we hear theirs and they say, ‘Wow, that's super cool.’”

I get to speak from these scars of experience without regret, without pride, but with humility and with honesty and say, “Here's where I've been. And here is why I am here today and able to share these things in a meaningful way.” Any further thoughts on that, Brady?

[00:37:37] Brady W: Maybe my thoughts are, and because it's applicable to me, sometimes is the sharing out of pride? Like I want my story to be cool, and if we do it in a humble way, and knowing that this is God directing me in the sharing, I think it's important to recognize and realize.

[00:38:02] Justin B: Beautiful. All right. Let's start heading into closing this conversation down. Is there anything else that you feel you really want to share? That's just sitting on your heart?

[00:38:14] Brady W: I don't think so, Justin. I think that we covered it pretty well.

[00:38:17] Justin B: Thank you so much, Brady. Okay. So closing questions. What words of advice or experience do you have to share with the newcomer who is just stepping into the rooms of 12 step recovery for the first time? And then what words of experience and invitation and advice do you have for the old timer that may be thinking, “Hey, it's time for me to check out, I'm good.”

[00:38:44] Brady W: I guess first for the newcomer it was super impactful for me to hear other stories [of those] that had long term sobriety. And I would say, seek those people out. Find them in your home group. Look for, I think you've described it as someone with the fire in their eyes. “They have something that I want.” 

And, search that person out. Get a hold of them, talk to them, they're going to be willing, if they're still in the rooms, they're going to be willing to talk to you. Hear their story and gain some hope from them. Maybe that right there with my rock bottom, hearing hope, or those two coupled together were the things that brought me to the point where I could change. So I would say that - seek those people out.

And then for the old timer, just the opposite, I guess the inverse. Be willing to share what you have. You have something that others are scratching, clawing, doing all that they can to have. And because [you were] given it so freely, just be willing to share. God needs you in that work. 

[00:40:10] Justin B: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Brady. Let's close this out, me and you with the closing phrase that we always say at the end of all of our SAL meetings. Let's do this together. Keep coming back. It works when I work it. So work it, you're worth it.