Learning Healthy Sexuality as Couples and Families Affected by Porn & Sexual Addiction w/ Chelom Leavitt

In this episode, host Tara McCausland and Dr. Chelom Leavitt discuss the importance of learning about and developing healthy sexuality and how that is impacted by pornography and sexual betrayal. Key points include the necessity of establishing safety in relationships before healthy sexuality can be addressed, self-compassion, understanding sexual perceptions and expectations, overcoming the negative influences of pornography and the importance of open communication. The conversation also delves into how couples can work on their own healing in this area to positively impact their children's development of healthy sexuality. Strategies for fostering a family environment of open and frequent communication, honesty, and warmth around difficult topics are highlighted. The episode also touches on overcoming body image issues personally and in coupleship and talking about personal changes associated with problematic sexual behavior with children.

Connect with Chelom at chelomleavitt.com

00:00 Introduction and Upcoming Event
01:26 Guest Introduction: Dr. Chelom Leavitt
02:11 Understanding Healthy Sexuality
06:05 Impact of Pornography on Sexual Expectations
08:54 Developing Healthy Sexuality in Relationships
10:02 Challenges and Misconceptions in Sexual Education
11:34 Emotional and Physical Intimacy
18:05 Addressing Unhealthy Sexual Patterns
24:37 Healthy vs. Unhealthy Sexuality in Relationships
26:54 Identifying Relationship Wedges
27:29 Challenges of Lower Desire Partners
28:39 Emotional Connection and Communication
29:55 Body Image and Insecurities
31:26 Healthy Sexuality and Self-Acceptance
35:21 Talking to Kids About Healthy Sexuality
37:28 Creating an Open Family Dialogue
44:31 Overcoming Shame and Silence
49:58 Final Thoughts and Recommendations

Transcript

Introduction and Upcoming Event

Introduction 0:06

This is Pathway to Recovery, an S.A. Lifeline Foundation podcast, featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the S.A. Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Guest Introduction: Dr. Shalom Leavitt

Tara McCausland 0:36

Hey, so before we get started, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming event that we're excited about. It is our annual Vision Cast, February 10th. That's a Monday at 7 p.m. Mountain Time. And here we will be sharing a little bit about our successes of 2024, some of the things that we were able to achieve as an organization, as well as what we're hoping to accomplish in 2025. So we would love for you to join us, and we'd like also to share how you can link arms with us and help us continue to do this important work of recovering individuals and healing families from the effects of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. So again, if you'd like to register, go to essalifeline.org. You can just uh fill out that short form, and we hope to see you there February 10th. Shalom Levitt received her PhD from Penn State. Dr. Levitt studies healthy sexuality in committed relationships and focuses on how mindfulness during sex may be associated with positive outcomes for both men and women. Her recent publications include cross-cultural work on sexual mindfulness, a study examining women's sexual response cycles, and a study examining how loneliness impacts relational and sexual outcomes. Shalom regularly blogs for psychology today. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery podcast. I'm your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm so thrilled to have here with me Shalom Levitt. Welcome, Dr. Levitt.

Understanding Healthy Sexuality

Shalom Leavitt 2:09

Yeah. Thank you so much.

Tara McCausland 2:11

This is going to be, I think, a meaty conversation that we're going to have today. In fact, before we started rolling here, we were just working through some things and we recognize that the topic of developing healthy sexuality is a really loaded topic for those who are dealing with the burden of sexual betrayal, sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. So we want to be really sensitive to those who are listening. And if you are just new to this world of sexual addiction and trauma and you're just in the early phases, be compassionate with yourself. And if you need to shelf this episode for a little while, we get that as well. But I just wanted to start this episode off with that in mind. That we have a sensitive audience and we appreciate that there are phases of healing. And so we're also going to touch on how our ability to develop healthy sexuality as individuals, as couples, is going to trickle down to our children. So we're going to cover a lot. So thanks, Shalom, for being willing to take on such a hard topic. It has to be clear. Yes. So maybe to start us off, just as I was saying before, considering that many in our audience might have made a fresh discovery that their partner has been cheating on them, has been using pornography in secret, and might might be experiencing trauma, what might be addressed before even talking about developing healthy sexuality?

Shalom Leavitt 3:36

I think it's important to take a little time for yourself. I study mindfulness as well. And so I think a lot of times when we're hit with something that's startling, that changes our whole perspective of the relationship, uh, we maybe want to take a little time away. And this may be hours or it may be weeks for us to just see where we're landing, see what it is that's how this is really impacting us. And it's going to be different for everyone. And that's okay if it takes you longer or if you are able to quickly come to some sort of understanding as to how you're impacted. So I would say slow it down. Don't feel like you have to react or solve things or move in any certain pattern, but just slow down and realize you've just had an altering experience. How is this going to fit into how you move forward? So I would, yeah, just take a minute.

Tara McCausland 4:45

Yeah. In 12 step, they'd say take the pause. Take the pause and don't be too reactive and care for yourself. And for a lot of people that are in a relationship where there has been sexual betrayal, there may be safety issues in play as well. And there's even maybe a concern of STDs. And so as we're considering moving forward in developing healthy sexuality, we want to make sure that we're safe. And so we want to just remind you, listeners, that you have that opportunity to take the pause, to care for yourself. If you're concerned about safety issues, STDs, we're not gonna, we don't have to jump right back into a sexual relationship that we don't feel safe in.

Impact of Pornography on Sexual Expectations

Shalom Leavitt 5:30

Yeah, in fact, and safety is a layered concept, right? Because yes, you're talking about physical safety. How has this impacted my health, but also emotional safety, which also impacts your health? A lot of people who are going through this, they feel deeply intensely, and then that starts to affect their physical health. So this is something that is going to take some time for you to sort through what is safety in my circumstances and uh how am I going to address really taking care of myself.

Tara McCausland 6:05

Also, before we really get rolling, I'm curious what your thoughts are about what role you feel like pornography plays in unhealthy sexual concepts. Because I feel like so much of developing healthy sexuality is unlearning a lot of what we've learned from the media and pornography, if that's been a part of our experience. What are your thoughts about that?

Shalom Leavitt 6:28

I don't research pornography, but I know quite a lot about the research because I teach healthy sexuality, right? And so the opposite, those are the opposite of each other. And if we're I I guess what I would say the biggest, the biggest outcome of pornography that everyone really agrees on is that it changes our expectations in a healthy relationship. Now we act as if people who have gone down this road of pornography or sex addiction or whatever the unhealthy behavior is. We we talk about recovery, but sometimes there's nothing to recover because we never came from a healthy place. And so a lot of it, like you just said, is weeding out all these unhealthy attitudes I had. And pornography is particularly pernicious in that it has changed what my expectations are about sex. It has changed how I interact, my attitudes, all of these things. And then probably it can result in then acting out in a number of unhealthy ways.

Developing Healthy Sexuality in Relationships

Tara McCausland 7:49

Yeah. It's hard to stomach this, but the reality is that pornography in our culture really is our sex education. For most people, that's where they get their information. And we know it's like the worst kind of information you could ever get about what sex is really all about, which is connectedness, wholeness, developing a healthy, again, connected relationship with your partner. And that it's about both partners. It's not about one partner servicing the other or making sure that the other partner is not going to act out if they're not getting enough sex anyway. In the extreme cases, we know that pornography is getting more violent, more aggressive. And our children are growing up in this environment where they're learning things that it's hard to wrap your brain around, but where they think that it's okay to maybe even strangle or hurt someone because of things that they've seen. I hope that's not too triggering for our audience. But recognizing that pornography for many has become our sex education and unlearning what we have learned, if that's been a part of our experience, is going to be a challenge, but it is possible. And I think Shalom, you're going to give us some hope that it's possible that we can develop healthy sexuality in this culture, even.

Shalom Leavitt 9:02

One thing I really like to say is that it's never too early and it's never too late. So if whatever side of the spectrum you're on, if you're thinking about talking to your children and you're worried that you're talking to them too early, it's never too early. Now, we want to approach it in a way that's digestible for them and appropriate for their developmental level. But it's also never too late. So if I neglected talking to my kids and now they're teenagers or young adults, it that's still okay. Or if I'm facing the reality that I'm now in a relationship and we have all sorts of unhealthy patterns, it's never too late, right? We can relearn these things and start to change our trajectory.

Challenges and Misconceptions in Sexual Education

Tara McCausland 9:49

Yeah. And that's the message we hope to give in this episode. I think it's good for us to understand where we've been and where we can be. And so let's go there. Maybe I can ask this question first, because I don't think it's for many of us, I think we feel a lot of shame around sex for a multitude of reasons. Because the media or pornography has been our teacher, we've not been given good counsel. And I'm just curious, do you know what the stats are when it comes to how many people grew up in a home where there was any talk of healthy sexuality? Do you have any data on that?

Shalom Leavitt 10:24

Yeah, there's some data and it changes from group to group, but in general, the vast majority of young people get very little. And if they and what they do get is scary. It's about the risks, it's about pornography, it's not about healthy sexuality. It's intended to scare or keep you in line. And particularly for women, it's aimed at letting women know that the ideal woman is asexual, right? You don't have sexual appetites, you don't, it's not attractive for a girl to be the initiator, but women have to look very sexy, right? So it's this conflicting message for women in particular. And for men, just that kind of anything goes, and we don't really talk to men about the emotions that sex is going to bring up. And so men are much more are very ill-prepared for the emotional side of sex.

Emotional and Physical Intimacy

Tara McCausland 11:33

Yeah. I think that when we consider the sexual relationship, what we all really want is to feel loved and to be able to give love. And in its best case scenario, it is this deeply connecting experience, not just physically, but emotionally and spiritually. And I think society has segmented sex to be merely a physical experience when we haven't understood the beauty of sexuality and the beauty of our bodies, and we had just dumbed it down to this just again, physical experience and in a coupleship. We're really missing the boat. And so if you could give us a definition of what is healthy sexuality, what is it that we're really striving for?

Shalom Leavitt 12:23

Yeah, we can start to talk about the target, but like you said, it's very complex. And I would say that it really is comprised of certainly the physical, but like you said, that's generally what people uh that's all that they focus on. And I call that fragmentation. When we separate the emotional and the spiritual or the meaning of sex from the physical responses that we're experiencing, that's really fragmented. And so we start to have really distorted views about our sexuality. I would actually say that the emotional side of sex is the largest component. 80% of arousal occurs in the brain. And so that means we need to be disciplining or guiding how we think about sex so that we can have a meaningful connection. Certainly, that includes arousal and pleasurable feelings for both people. But sex is really other focused. If we are just thinking about ourselves, we are missing the boat on healthy sexuality. This is a shared experience that really needs, you have to be not only aware of what's going on inside your body, but aware of what's going on for the other person. So it's a skill that you really have to practice to be able to experience meaningful sex.

Tara McCausland 13:59

And it is so complicated. I was actually just listening to a podcast last night in preparation for this interview. And I think she did bring up this concept of fragmentation. I love that in your work, you're able to teach, okay, we're going to bring all these pieces together, and then we're going to not just have this very physical experience, but something that's going to help you feel like a more whole person and more whole and connected in your relationship with your spouse, and I think with the God of your understanding. I've heard that at its best, sex can draw not just a couple together, but it can be a spiritually edifying experience, which is for some people like, what? Because it's been so physical.

Shalom Leavitt 14:44

Yeah, I would say that sex is an activity that should be teaching you so much about yourself and how you need to change. We talk about intimacy, and I'm including emotional and physical intimacy, relational intimacy. We talk about intimacy as if it's always this happy, wonderful thing. The truth is intimacy, if you're in a healthy relationship, should also be a little bit not scary, but challenging, right? In that I'm revealing parts of myself that maybe I don't even like. Maybe I'm afraid that I'm not going to be accepted if I share with you something that goes against whatever. But that is intimacy. If we can share with each other our fears, our disappointments, our mistakes, and we can be accepted in the relationship, not necessarily approved of, but accepted and loved and then challenged. You know what? That's really not okay that this is going on for you. Let's talk about that. So that is what real intimacy is. It's certainly the fun, romantic things that bring us closer together, but it's also these challenging things. And so people who are going through a struggle in their relationship over whatever the issue is, if approached in this really open, authentic manner, we can actually draw closer to each other. This doesn't have to be a wedge in our relationship. If one has really high sexual desire and one has low, lower desire, that doesn't need to be a wedge. That can actually be an opportunity for us to understand each other at a deeper, more intimate level.

Addressing Unhealthy Sexual Patterns

Tara McCausland 16:54

Yeah. And I think a lot of couples can appreciate that sex, sex can become such a wedge. And especially, again, if there has been infidelity, if there's addiction present, it that's the burden that many of these couples are going to carry that are listening to this. But any couple, I would say. Yes. And I'll just speak from personal experience, as you're sorting through these differences, and men and women are different sexually, unless you view it in this, this is an opportunity for us to grow together type of way, it can feel like this constant source of conflict. And I I love that perspective that I've heard that marriage is it's the best school to become the person that I believe that we're capable of becoming. And the sexual piece is probably one of the most challenging, but has the greatest opportunity for growth and progression because of those differences. And I wanted to say this before I rewind a little bit because I maybe I'm getting a little excited, Shalom, but I want to make sure that our listeners understand, because again, most of you who are listening are dealing with some type of infidelity or sexual betrayal or addiction in your situation. Sex addiction is not about sex. That's right. And so we have to realize that healthy sexuality is not going to fix a sex addiction. That's right. However, as we're understanding more the reasons for, like why we're coping with pornography or other sexually acting out behaviors, as we're getting a grasp on that and doing some healing, we need to start moving into this direction of developing a healthier mindset around sex. So we're gonna say that from at this point on in our conversation, that's where we're at, that we have done some healing on both sides for both partners, and they're ready to really start developing this healthy sexuality. Where would you start?

Shalom Leavitt 18:52

Whatever it is that motivated you to get into some unhealthy patterns, whether that was accommodating too much or demanding too much, I would say, what's underneath that? Why, what's the accommodating or the demanding nature coming from? If sex, if we understand, I look at the ideal, and the ideal is I certainly require safety and stability, and then I want to look after my partner's well-being. If both partners are not doing that, something's up, and we need to find out why is that happening? Why is one person taking and one person doing all the giving? That right there is one that a lot of couples deal with uh even outside of unhealthy sexual behaviors, right? So we need to start looking at these small attitudes that end up creating large problems. I think that maybe sex is a proof of love, or sex is just about physical pleasure. All of these attitudes creep into both men and women, no matter what side you're on, we likely have some unhealthy attitudes we need to examine. The best way to do that is start learning about what is healthy, what is the ideal, and how does my reality not align with that?

Tara McCausland 20:35

That's a great explanation of where we we do need to start, like understanding my own perspectives and perceptions of sex, why I feel that way. Do you feel like that can be done well on your own with some good resources, or is that going to require therapy? Like, how do we really start shifting patterns?

Shalom Leavitt 20:58

I think that I was a co-author with some other professors on a book that might be a really good starting point because it just outlines what healthy sexuality is. And that takes some thought, some reflection. And then do you maybe need to have some additional guidance from a therapist as you sort through these really distorted attitudes or behaviors that you have internalized? Yeah, you may. And a therapist can be a great support in your own thought process of going through what do I need to weed out and what do I need to insist on moving forward?

Tara McCausland 21:45

I think there are more and more good resources coming out. And if you're a person of faith, I think often we want something that is written from that perspective. So I'll I can put that book in in the show notes, Shalom, that you have written. I have a couple of books.

Shalom Leavitt 22:00

I would recommend, and I'll I'll give those to you. One is more geared towards talking to your kids in a really clear way that's comfortable. And one is more about couples and the marriage relationship.

Tara McCausland 22:13

Great. Yes. For our listeners, look in the show notes for those recommendations because I think education about what is healthy sexuality is the first step. That's where we're going to build our foundation. We're not going to make much progress without good information, right?

Shalom Leavitt 22:28

And we have to realize that the reason we were attracted to pornography or other sexual relationships is because we felt a gap, right? We felt uh empty in some way. And we were trying, although it was misguided, we were trying to find some way to feel some satisfaction. You quickly find out going down those roads that there is no satisfaction in that. And oftentimes we see in research, even in people who have not necessarily gone down those roads, but maybe they're just closed off emotionally, that they report sex actually feeling quite solitary. And that's not just because it's masturbation. It's even when they're with a partner, they feel like it's empty, like it's so devoid of all of these nourishing aspects that sex should have, that they feel empty. That's another way that our bodies, our minds tell us this is not, this is not the path that's going to bring me wholeness or completion.

Tara McCausland 23:47

That's such a good point. Pornography or other sexually acting out behaviors, they were filling some type of a void, as you said, right? And it became the drug of choice to medicate something that they felt like was missing, some type of emotional connection or connection with God, or feelings of confidence and worthiness in themselves. Right. Or something they were trying to numb.

Shalom Leavitt 24:11

Right. Had a terrible experience and they're just trying to forget. So there's lots of reasons. We can understand why it happens. But once you see either in your relationship, if you're the partner or if you're the person, you see that brings no satisfaction and it damages everyone around you. So really important to quickly identify it and change course.

Tara McCausland 24:37

So I'm curious then, and maybe again we're backtracking, but how does healthy or unhealthy sex really impact a relationship? But what's that going to look like if you are having a healthy sexual experience with your partner? What is that going to look like? And how is that going to bless your marriage versus unhealthy sex?

Identifying Relationship Wedges

Shalom Leavitt 24:58

So let's start with healthy because uh that's happy. I think you both feel seen and heard, and you feel felt, like your partner really gets you. You're sharing your bodies in a way that's nourishing to each other. You feel like you are connecting and you are deepening this relationship. You feel like your needs are being met. Even if you're the high desire partner and you'd like to have sex five times a week, but you only have it twice a week, what you're seeing is that your partner is willing to try and meet your needs while you meet their needs, right? So it's about a little bit of compromise and understanding and readjustment, but it's also this underlying feeling of you get me. We're deepening our connection with each other. We compare that to unhealthy sexuality, where one person maybe is a little manipulative or demanding, and the other person might accommodate for a while, but then things start to just feel icky. They feel like I'm not seen. Maybe it's just my body you're after. Or there's distance, right? That we start creating emotionally and relationally. If we don't talk about these things, then we will act out these things that we're feeling. So once I feel harmed or ignored or dismissed in my relationship, if I don't talk about that, what I'm gonna do is probably do things like being snippy or giving the cold shoulder. And so that might happen on both sides. Maybe the higher desire partner feels annoyed that their needs aren't being met, but they're not talking about it. And they're blaming the other person and saying, you're so cold, or you don't really care about me. And so we start to see these little wedges creep in. It can get bigger, it can get very hostile. It just creates space. You start to see that there is a canyon between us. And maybe we don't even have the skills to know how to overcome this. But if you don't seek out the skills, then you know you're likely going to not last.

Tara McCausland 27:29

I think one of the great challenges, and again, whether or not your relationship has been plagued with addiction or infidelity, I think for a lower desire partner, often a question might be do you want to connect with me or do you just want sex? And I think that's one of the hard things is that in the best case scenario, this it really is about connection and about thinking of the other person. Now, we can't only think of the other person, especially for the lower desire partner. They have to think of themselves so that it can be an uplifting and pleasurable experience for them. But if, as you said earlier, it it has to be this mutually bonding and uplifting experience for this to be a healthy situation. Otherwise, I think again, it's so easy to fall into this pattern of, oh, he, I'll say he, because usually it's the man that has the higher drive. But if I don't give him sex, then he's going to be grumpy, he's going to be irritated, and that's going to be on me. But I'm not sure that he wants to connect with me. And so I feel resentful. What would you say to that?

Emotional Connection and Communication

Shalom Leavitt 28:36

Yeah. And here is where this is a little challenging. This is a little scary sometimes for people to speak up and say, I don't feel like you're wanting to connect with my soul. You're just wanting to connect with my body. And that hurts my feelings. And here's why. Oftentimes we have to take a pause, like you said, and think about why is that so hurtful to me? There's lots of reasons. We we know from research that we want to be seen as a whole person, not just body parts. I want you to care about my emotions. I want you to see what my needs and desires are. And it's not even kind to demand sex when there are underlying problems in the relationship. Sometimes we need to take a little break from sex and really work on our communication and connecting with each other emotionally and relationally. We need to like each other. Um, not that we never have sex after a fight, and maybe that helps us make up, because sex is certainly bonding. But if we're using that all the time for that reason, there is a larger issue in the relationship that needs to be addressed.

Body Image and Insecurities

Tara McCausland 29:53

Yeah, yeah. And what would you say? Because sometimes in these relationships where there's been pornography use, especially hidden pornography use, and it came to light, a lot of the partners feel very vulnerable and like they have body image issues knowing what they're being compared to. We see the magazines as we're going through the grocery store checkout line. And we don't feel we measure up to that. And I know that's becoming a growing issue for men as well. And part of healthy sex is feeling attractive in and of yourself. What are some things that you suggest for people as they're trying to deal with their own insecurities about their body on both sides for whatever reason, as they're developing healthy sexuality? It's a huge part of it.

Healthy Sexuality and Self-Acceptance

Shalom Leavitt 30:41

Yeah, I'm going to talk about the typical problems where it's the woman who has body image issues and maybe she's put on a little weight after a couple of kids, and she's not feeling particularly great about how she looks. We really have to become more realistic about what our bodies go through. And I talk to women all the time about let's be a little more gentle with ourselves and be more realistic about what a body should look like. These images that we see are often touched up. They're not even real. Plastic surgery is skyrocketing because women are feeling this pressure to be to look some certain way. We need to really get in touch with our body, maybe even do a little meditation on accepting and loving who we are. Maybe we do want to start getting a little more fit. That's great. But that shouldn't be the driving force to whether or not we like ourselves. I often suggest that people get a full-length mirror and stand naked in front of that mirror and make yourself look at yourself every day for a few minutes until you can start feeling some compassion and love. For I tell my kids all the time, I'm like, this body actually brought forth humans. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna praise what I have been through and what this body has done for me and done for you. And I think we need to take the same approach with our husbands. If there is any shaming going on, that is a huge problem that needs to be addressed. And probably he and likely she or they need to be going to counseling. That is not okay if your partner is shaming your body ever. This is a sacred machine, I guess, is what I want to say, that we are blessed to be our soul is housed in. And so when we demean it, it does something to our soul. We need to be really firm about thinking and talking more positively about how we look and who we are. Love that.

Tara McCausland 33:09

I'm gonna reiterate what you said about if we have these challenges, and I would say probably the vast majority of people do feel some shame around their body. And ironically, I'll just say some of the most beautiful women I've ever known had the most shame, which is so mind-boggling. So we know it really is not the size of your body or really how it looks, it's all mental. Yes, how you are talking to yourself about your body. And so reiterating the power of meditation and positive self-affirming talk, especially around, and I love that idea of standing in front of a mirror and saying, you are beautiful, look at what your body has, what it has done, what it is doing. That I am not just a body, I am this embodied soul.

Shalom Leavitt 33:55

One other thing I would bring up, just as a caution to mothers, if you are negative about your body, your young girls are also going to pick that up and start already, uh as young girls feeling negative about themselves. We are teaching our girls how to interact with the world. And we need to not make it about our weight or our dress size.

Talking to Kids About Healthy Sexuality

Tara McCausland 34:24

Yeah, 100%. And final thought here, and we'll move on because we want to talk briefly about how we can talk to our kids about this. And we're not gonna go really deep into this. We might have to have you back so we can talk more about teaching children about healthy sexuality. But for partners to be really, as you had said, very gentle and kind about how they speak to their spouse about their body. I know that words matter and things said thoughtlessly can stay with someone for years. So to be very gentle, sensitive, and remember, your wife, your husband, they are not that supermodel on the supermarket magazine. And to value them for the whole person that they are and the and the companion that they are and not the size of their waist. Okay. So let's move beyond the couple and talk about the whole family dynamic because we really want to change for the upcoming generation, right? Because for most of us, we grew up in homes where nothing hard was really addressed, especially healthy sexuality and developing bodies, et cetera. So why is it so important to start talking to your kids about healthy sexuality?

Creating an Open Family Dialogue

Shalom Leavitt 35:45

I would even start uh a step back from that and say it has to start with the couple. Your kids are watching you. They know more about your marriage than you think they do. They're pretty perceptive. We think that if we go fight in the bedroom that they're not going to catch on, that's not true. And they notice how you treat each other. Is there a kind touch? Is there affection between you? Is there respect? Those sorts of things we are teaching our kids without even teaching them. And so we need to realize that we need to get our business together so that our kids can have a healthy attitude towards all of these things. Now, you're absolutely right that we can also directly instruct them. And that's very meaningful. So if we have a troubled marriage, can we be honest about that and say, you know what, sweetheart, maybe they're 10 or 12 or whatever. I know you've seen us have problems, but I want to tell you, mom and dad love each other. We're trying to work through things, or if that's not even the case, we feel differently about how to live our lives. And we're trying to, you know, be respectful to each other, whatever it is. But then we need to be really honest with our kids about what healthy sexuality is and what it isn't, particularly if they've seen examples of what isn't healthy sexuality. We need to address that head on. Maybe not when they're, you know, five and six, but certainly as they get older and we can talk about those topics. So I would say talking with your kids about sex really starts the moment they're born. How do you talk about their body? Do you name each body part with the right name? Or do you talk in silly terms that don't really help them have a competent understanding of their body? Right. I remember when my youngest daughter discovered she had an elbow. Uh, she didn't know it had a name. And then I told her, oh, that's your elbow. She was delighted and started running around the house saying, elbow, elbow. It's the same for your genitals. Children need to know the names of these different parts of their genitals and talk about it in a very matter-of-fact way. This is like an elbow. It's every other part of your body so that they can feel comfortable and knowledgeable. We know that children who have learned the right terms for their body parts have a better body esteem, right? They feel like they understand. They are also more likely to be able to tell you if something made them uncomfortable, they can describe that to you and tell you what happened. So there's all sorts of reasons to start very young and then start answering their questions and being quite open. If you see your child masturbating in the bathtub, likely, depending on their age, they may be just discovering their genitals. And so instead of freaking out and making this a horrible experience, just say, oh, you just discovered your penis. That probably feels pretty good when you touch it. But let's, and then you can just distract them so it doesn't become a habit, right? Start talking about how wonderful their body is and strong and it can heal and all of these other things. And then when they're about seven or eight or nine, we know that developmentally they're ready to hear more about sex and the purpose of genitals and how they can best keep safe boundaries around how they use their body. And so here's where I would have a pretty complete talk. This is what sex is. You may in the future see somebody try to depict it. And that's not a good way to learn. If you have any questions, come talk to me. We know from research that children who have had this warm, comfortable conversation about sex with their parents, when they are exposed to pornography, they're more likely to reject it because that doesn't have the same comfortable, warm feeling that mom and dad communicated with me. And so it feels strange to them, right? And distasteful as it should. But so many children, like you said at the beginning, that is their first education about sex. So already it's distorted. It's about manipulation or power or all sorts of toys and harmful behaviors. Instead, let's talk about sex from a very young age in this happy, healthy, like mom and dad love to hug each other. And when we hug, we feel closer to each other. Sex is even something that makes us feel additionally closer to each other. Sex makes your body feel good. It's a lovely thing. But we want to reserve sex for a relationship that's committed and safe. And here is where parents can talk about their own values. How do we value the use of sex? And what we know from research again is that parents who are open and create a comfortable environment, their children are more likely to adopt their values. So if I talk about sex, and in my family, we want to reserve sex until you're married. And so my kids are much more likely to adopt that same value because I'm open about it. They don't have to go searching for information from their friends or the internet. Instead, they just come and ask me. And I felt it was a huge victory when one of my teenage girls came home from high school and she said, I was folding the laundry and she came in. We were chatting. She said, Mom, all my friends are talking about oral sex. I don't really know what that is. And so we sat as we folded laundry and talked about oral sex. And at the end of it, she said, wow, that's nothing that I thought it was. And so here I was able to educate her and create this intimacy between us instead of her having to go somewhere else to get that information. Now that couldn't happen unless I had started much earlier in creating this dialogue that's just ongoing. And I really think a nice rule of thumb is once your children are 10, 11, 12, and all through their teenage years, you should be having some sort of touching base with them on some topic surrounding sex every week. Whether that's how do your friends interact with their girlfriend, boyfriend? How do what do you think about whatever topic comes up? Checking in with them about how they feel about their own body, how they're going through maturation as their voice drops or they start their period. How is that, how is that impacting your emotional self? So there's all sorts of ways we can talk to our kids and share more information and create that warm, comfortable environment.

Overcoming Shame and Silence

Tara McCausland 43:47

Yeah, I love all of that, Shalom. I remember when I was a teenager, we were reading scripture together as a family, and we we read somewhere the word concubine. So I don't remember who asked the question, but somebody said, Dad, it's a concubine. And he said, It's something that cuts wheat. That's that was the response to a sincere question. And my dad, he had a combine. He was a farming man. So I guess he felt like that response worked to avoid a difficult conversation. But that was the kind of environment that I had in my home. And I think a big reason why, like my dad didn't want to address that because of his own problematic sexual behaviors. And so I really like where you started, which was your kids see by your sheer example how you feel about sex and sexuality, how you feel about your relationship with your spouse, right? We can't hide that from our kids. And so we have to start with ourselves and with our own comfort level around sex. And if it's been problematic for us, we have to own that and be willing to even share a part of that story with our kids because they're going to have their own ups and downs and struggles. And one of the greatest gifts that my parents have given to my children is they tell all of their grandkids, ages 12 and up, their story, which includes hard things, including prostitution, frequenting strip clubs. This is heavy, hard stuff. But they know because of this open communication that they can go to grandma and grandpa. And so we're trying to foster, even though there's been hard stuff in my family, foster this climate of warmth, of honesty, of connection, even when there's been hard things associated with sex. And so if that's been our part of our story, it's okay. We didn't ruin anything for our kids. We just have to allow our children to be privy to some of that so they can be okay with their own bumps in the road. And before I have you continue, I just wanted to emphasize, because there was so much good there. So I think a lot of us come from this kind of shame-based background when we're talking about sex. So the alternative that you were suggesting, if you just want to summarize that for me, is in what words would you use?

Shalom Leavitt 46:07

Alternative to shame is allowing curiosity, allowing an open conversation, warmth, all of those things. When our children have questions, we should never say, oh, you're too young, you're too young to know that. Or that's not a good question. That's not acceptable to talk about. Our response needs to be if we need to take a pause and just take a breath, I love the response to just take a minute and then say, Thank you. Thank you for asking that question. That took a lot of courage. Praise our kids for their desire to know, their desire to learn the truth and not succumb to the world's either definition of sex or the world's shame about sex. Um that takes a lot of courage, and we need to really praise our children for it. I love what you said about your family, and I don't know how it all went down, but I've had lots of parents say, Oh, I feel like I've just waited too long and I can't now talk about this. And I say, listen, just go to them and say, I feel bad and I'm going to change my ways in how we approach this topic. This is a new trajectory for our family. I hope you can support me. Maybe it's going to be awkward at first, but I want, I care enough about our family that we're going to make this change.

Tara McCausland 47:43

Yeah, and we can be that change maker. We can instigate that change in our families, even if we've struggled with sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. There's hope for our children if we're willing to be that pattern breaker, if we're willing to not just work on our own healing, but be very open and honest about the journey with our children.

Shalom Leavitt 48:05

Truthfully, I think our children will be proud of us. They will see what a beautiful thing and how courageous we were to face it and not be one more link that hides it or continues it.

Tara McCausland 48:18

I think the greatest obstacle we all have to face when it comes to this issue, whether it's developing healthy sexuality or overcoming problematic sexual behavior and betrayal trauma, is the silence. We must come out into the light. We must be courageous and start talking and connecting. And then we'll be able to find the solutions, but we're not going to be able to do it in the darkness.

Shalom Leavitt 48:42

Maybe we misstep, maybe we talk too much or say something wrong. That's okay. Don't be so afraid of making mistakes that you don't start the path. We can say we're sorry. And our children learn from that too.

Tara McCausland 48:57

Yes. An apology goes a long way. They may not trust us initially, but if there is remorse and desire to change, there will be appreciation and even love. Our children will, in time, I think they'll come to trust us as we develop trustworthy action. But anyway, this has been such a pleasure, Shalom. I'm so grateful again for your expertise. And before I let you go, two questions. If people want to connect with you, where is the best place for them to find you? I have a website.

Shalom Leavitt 49:33

It's just my name, shalomlevitt.com. And I'm actually starting an Instagram page where I'm just going to give little tips each week for how to create a better relationship. And so I'll put some more information on that on my website. Or you could just email me at shalomlevitt at gmail.

Final Thoughts and Recommendations

Tara McCausland 49:55

Great. We'll put that in the show notes. Yeah. Awesome. And before I let you go, for those who are just starting this path of healing, what would you recommend to them, especially with your background and developing healthy sexuality? And on the flip side, if somebody's been doing this for a while, they need a little boost, what would you say to them?

Shalom Leavitt 50:14

Gosh, I would say be kind to yourself. You're on a really hard path. And you will grow. And you should celebrate the small things that happen that show that you can trust yourself more. And don't worry so much about your partner, but take a little time for self-care and be kind to yourself. Take a pause and maybe reflect. I think that journaling is so important. So if you've kept a journal through this, go back and read where you were a year ago and see how far you've come, or maybe how you've been a little stagnant and try to journal about what you're going to do to again focus on your own growth and development. We do not get to control other people, or at least we shouldn't even try, but we can discipline ourselves and feed ourselves nutritious information that helps us understand what our next steps in development should be. And journaling about that holds us accountable, but it also gives us a record for comparison that we can go back and say, you know what? I've made a lot of progress. I'm facing things, I'm talking in a more positive way. Look at how my kids have grown and developed through this. There's lots of ways, lots of markers that we can look at and then pat ourselves on the back and take a minute to celebrate what we've done.

Tara McCausland 51:56

I love that. Great counsel. Thank you for your time. It's been awesome, Dr. Levitt. Nice to meet you. You too.

Introduction 52:05

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