Pathway to Recovery
Pathway to Recovery is an S.A. Lifeline Foundation podcast featuring hosts Tara McCausland and Justin B. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.
Pathway to Recovery
How Faith Leaders Can Support Couples Affected By Sexual Addiction & Betrayal Trauma w/ Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith
In this episode, host Tara McCausland speaks with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith about their personal experience with sexual addiction and betrayal trauma and their journey to now helping others with similar challenges. The discussion delves into common mistakes faith leaders make in addressing sexual addiction and betrayal trauma and emphasizes the importance of education, support, and using outside resources to better serve these couples. They outline three phases of rebuilding relational intimacy after betrayal: recovery, restoration, and renewal. The concept of not rushing or forcing forgiveness and trust is addressed. The episode concludes with advice for couples at various stages of recovery and details on how faith communities can support them.
Find the Raabsmith's free resources here.
Get a copy of the 9 Best Practices for Faith Leaders pdf here.
SA Lifeline Foundation
SAL 12 Step
Find an SAL12Step Meeting
Donate
Contact to ask questions or make comments
Transcripts
How Faith Leaders can Support Those Affected by Sexual Addiction and Betrayal Trauma w/ Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith
[00:00:00]
Introduction and Upcoming Events
Welcome Pathway to Recovery listeners. So glad you're here. I wanted to share two exciting events that we have coming up in April. First we have our benefit dinner, SA Lifeline foundation fundraising event, April 12th in Salt Lake City, Utah. And we hope that you'll join us. We're very excited to feature keynote speaker, Joseph Grenny, who is a four time New York times bestselling author. Some of you may know one of his books, Crucial Conversations, and he's a co-founder of many transformative peer run communities. So again, we hope you'll join us in Salt Lake City, April 12th for this fundraising event. You can go to salifeline.org under the Events tab to secure your spot.
Also, we're super excited for our first ever SAL 12 Step in-person conference, which is April 26th, 2025 at Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah. And you may be scratching your head saying, “Wait. SA Lifeline has had lots of [00:01:00] conferences. But again, there is a difference between SA Lifeline and SAL 12 Step.
Our SA Lifeline events are for the general public. But the SAL 12 Step conference is for those who are participating in our SAS 12 step program. And so it's going to be all things 12 Step that are going to be discussed and it will be people from within SAL 12 Step that will be sharing their strength, hope, and experience.
So we hope that you'll come join us on April 26th in Orem, Utah. You won't want to miss that opportunity to gather and hear from other SAL 12 Step members and leadership. Be sure to watch for registration on sal12 step.org which should be available in the next few weeks.
Meet Our Guests: Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith
Without further ado, I want to introduce our wonderful guests for this episode. Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith, clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Their mission is to help [00:02:00] couples navigate the complexities of relational challenges, particularly in the aftermath of sexual addiction and betrayal, trauma, fostering deep restoration and growth.
Tara: Matthew is a professional certified coach with a background in pastoral leadership while Joanna is a licensed marriage and family therapist, EMDR practitioner and certified clinical partner specialist through APSATS. Both hold Master of Divinity degrees and have served together on multiple church leadership teams. Currently, they co lead their private practice, the Raabsmith Team, where they specialize in helping couples rebuild connection, trust, and intimacy.
Now to our episode.
Tara: Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery podcast. I'm your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm so pleased to have here with me Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith. Welcome.
Matthew: Hi. So glad to be here.
Tara: I had to pause to make sure I got that last name right. It can be tricky. So excited to meet the [00:03:00] two of you. I know that our listeners are going to be very eager to hear what you have to say. Our organization is non denominational, but God-centered.
And so we have people listening that are from a variety of faith traditions, but many people come to us with a faith background and a faith community. And I know they have had experiences, some of them good, many of them not in their churches with their faith leaders.
And so for those who are listening, whether or not you are a part of a faith community, whether or not maybe you serve in your church community, we hope that you'll find value here, but we know that the church can be a great support, but sometimes we need to give better information.
The Raabsmiths' Journey to Healing
Tara: But before we dive into some of that, I'm curious if you can just tell our listeners a little bit about you, what brings you to the world of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma?
Matthew: An interesting word, right? I think probably I would have described it a few years ago as drug. We're in this work mainly because this was our experience. [00:04:00] And I brought in a history of a decade plus long sexual addiction into our relationship. It was something I hinted about to Joanna, but really kept hidden, never really truly ever explaining to her what that actually was and what that looked like.
And for the first three years of our marriage that addiction was just running and going and really eating away at everything that I wanted to be as a husband, everything we wanted to be as a couple. And we were really lucky because we were in a place where we started to hear some resources about sexual addiction and recovery. We actually heard a testimony from a pastor who had gotten help. And we were in seminary to become pastors at the time.
And Joanna brought home this testimony so bravely on August 1st, 2013. It's my sobriety date. It's our D day. And she said, “Is this what you're struggling with?” And I said, "Yes.” And that really began a [00:05:00] journey, now more than 10 years, that we've been on both of just recovery but also restoration and renewal.
And so we got into the work because we had done so much of the work ourselves. We knew that we just couldn't keep it to ourselves. We wanted it to be really integrated in our ministry and our professional work and everything we did.
Joanna: Yeah. And I think we've always had a heart for couples even before recovery and in going through recovery. God really started calling us into that particular niche of ministering to couples going through this. We started our journey into freedom, healing, reconciliation because of someone else's testimony. And so we really felt a pull to be voices, to speak up, to share our testimony, to bring healing to others as well. And we obviously have a deep passion for the connection to the church around this, [because] we've both worked inside of the church.
Now we're working outside of the church through private practice counseling, coaching therapy with [00:06:00] couples. But [we] just feel such a heart that the church serves a vital role in the healing journey or can serve a vital role in the healing journey of people if they are properly equipped.
And that's definitely our heart's passion and we, in our own story, have experienced the good side of that and the more challenging side of that in churches as well. So we know firsthand what that is like too.
Tara: I love that you've taken your hard things, your pain, and you're making something beautiful out of it and serving those around you. So I'm thrilled again to hear what you have to share with us, because I know this is a tricky subject and I know for those faith leaders actually that I hope will listen, we want first to express our gratitude for the efforts that you are making.
Because I know for so many people in my faith tradition it's a complete lay ministry. And the people that are called to certain positions, they didn't ask for it, and they may not have any background in certain things, [00:07:00] like certainly not going to be counselors. We want you to be compassionate with yourself and also invite you to be open minded. Let's lead out with this question.
Common Mistakes Churches Make
Tara: What are some of the common mistakes churches make when supporting individuals struggling with sexual addiction? We'll start there.
Matthew: Yeah. And I appreciate that. And I reiterate what you said. I think we do want to name like churches are doing a lot, and there are a lot of communities, pastors, leaders, elders that are really wanting to continue to further this field. That being said, it's still in some ways a really new developing field. Even within the field of psychology and the field of therapy, these are still developing resources. And so I get that the church is a little bit like, “I'm not quite sure how we handle this.”
I think some of the two big common mistakes that we see churches falling into is one, there's just this really easy temptation to see this as a [00:08:00] moral or kind of sin issue, right? That this is just something that someone is not supposed to do, like we're commanded right in scripture, but they do. And so we just need to ask them to not do it. And then it's that simple.
And I think that as we've been in this field for so long, and so this is common knowledge to us, but we're surprised when we're in churches and we've been invited to talk and share, how many people don't realize the addictive nature and how addiction really expands beyond just moralism, right?
It's not just a spiritual issue. It's usually a mental issue, a physical issue, an emotional issue. There's usually trauma involved, and so I think one of the mistakes that the churches make is seeing it as this kind of isolated issue that if I just pray or if I just want it to stop it will stop.
And I think for my own journey, I wanted sex addiction out of my life for years. I remember going to mentors, I shared very rarely, but I would [00:09:00] share with people. And there was very little help. It was like getting angry. If you don't want to be angry, right, you just give it to God. And I think realizing that the picture is so much bigger than that, and that many people who are struggling with sexual addiction are usually struggling with some significant underlying issues like trauma, potentially their own sexual abuse as a child or early exposure to pornography before the brain is ready to handle it.
And so they're overcoming a lot. And I think if the church can understand that, they will understand how the treatment of that, how we support people has to look totally different. It's probably not going to be a one off counseling session with a pastor to really resolve this issue. And so really understanding that for churches, I think is key.
Joanna: Yeah, I think another issue is when we see it as an isolated issue. As we began our recovery journey, there were so many [00:10:00] resources for Matthew and what he was going through both outside and inside the church. [But] very little for the partner on the other side of that addiction and almost nothing for the couple.
And what we begin to see is all these men being convicted and maybe going to support groups, understanding better what's going on and then wanting to come back home and dump that all on their wife. And then she's left sitting there in trauma, oftentimes having no idea what was going on. And there was no support, no resources for her.
And so one of the mistakes is not seeing it as a systemic issue and having structures, ministry support in place for the other people that addiction or sexual acting out is going to impact.
Matthew: Yeah. And I think, people who've been in an addictive family system, they understand, right? The addiction, in both active addiction and even recovery, has an impact on the [00:11:00] addict. It has an impact on the intimate partner and the children. All of these individuals and systems are really getting upset, even in recovery, right? It's a lot of turmoil, even in recovery. And so churches need to understand that because like I said, we've seen a lot of really well meaning churches.
We actually knew a church that did a big promotion. They started a huge men's program. And then they had wife after wife calling the church and saying, “What do you have for me?” And the church was like, “We didn't think about that. We didn't think about that greater impact.” So I think that is really key.
Tara: You covered so much there and I love it. So I'm going to break that down for a second. First of all, I love that you touched on [how] this is not about moral deprivation. Like some of the best people I know, dealt with this issue, deal with this issue.
And you very often hear, “You wouldn't believe that my husband has this problem. He's the nicest guy, right?
Matthew: Yeah. Absolutely.
Tara: They said the same thing about my father. He was a very religious [00:12:00] and even spiritual man. And yet addiction doesn't care who you are.
If we try and pray this away, it's like trying to pray cancer away, just not going to be successful. And I appreciated that you also had mentioned, Matthew, that this is a symptom of much deeper issues. And we know that trauma on both sides is happening and deeply rooted for people that are dealing with addictive patterns.
And I'll also say, as you guys put this, it’s a systemic issue, but it's not a marriage issue. And I think that a lot of faith leaders are like, “Oh, husband's having some challenges.” And sometimes, he complains about [the] wife and wife comes and he starts saying, “What can you do for your husband? How can you essentially fix him?”
So I know we'll get into that, and I'm going to just direct our listeners to the show notes. I'm going to put a link for our nine best practices for faith leaders that we developed this last [00:13:00] year. So I'll be done. We'll keep going. But I loved everything you said there. And I just wanted to validate and reiterate.
Okay. So let's talk then, because you touched on this, but what are some of the common mistakes that churches are making then when they're supporting individuals that have been impacted and they are potentially dealing with betrayal trauma? So tell us a little bit about that.
Supporting Betrayed Partners
Joanna: Yeah, I think part of it is not being educated. I think more than any other aspect, I think it's so important to be educated in the experience of the partner. Unless you have been through that experience, it is very difficult to understand what that is like. And I think the lack of understanding has led people to maybe shy away from those who have been hurt by betrayal because they don't feel equipped to support.
And I know so many partners feel incredibly isolated as they are going through that traumatic experience. And even if it doesn't create [00:14:00] trauma, it's still a traumatic experience, right? And so I tell all my partners that I see, women who lose husbands, “The church comes around and supports and there's meal trains,” but I have yet to hear one of my clients say, “Yes, the church organized a meal train for me when they heard my husband had betrayed me,” right?
There's just a very different level of support that's out there right now. So I think not shying away, not being uncomfortable and really pushing in, educating, seeking to understand that experience. It’s such a huge starting place.
And for those partners I work with where they're pastors, they don't know everything, but they're open. They're open and they invite that wife to share her story. Even that is so healing for them to know that they have a safe place where they're story will be received, their experience will be received and heard in a non judgemental way.
And then equipping, I think, [00:15:00] larger support communities of groups or things like that, like we mentioned earlier, is so important. Having some type of structure there, a net, ready to catch them and support them whenever it is that they find out, right? A lot of women call that their D Day, when they first discover something is going on in their marriage that they didn't know about.
Matthew: Yeah. And I think that as a pastor myself, I was a youth and family pastor for close to 15 years. And I think just recognizing that I understand the level of expectation and the amount of work that is usually laid on either lay leaders or pastoral staff, even professionally, and it's a lot. And I think that recognizing the need to invite other voices and experts in, I think that one of the mistakes I know I made as a pastor was thinking that I needed to be the expert on everything and then recognizing now as I'm out of the ministry, that was impossible.
[00:16:00] I think one of the things that churches can do really well to support partners is to recognize there are going to be people who really understand this issue both from a personal level and a professional level. And we can lean on them and then take the burden off of the pastor to be that kind of shepherd for every issue at every time and the expert on everything.
And I think that’s the way I think we've set up our churches, right? That we have these leaders and they're supposed to do everything for us rather than understanding they're really there to shepherd and to oversee. And then to equip, to bring in, to empower, to give voice to others who might be able to say, “Hey, let me share what this experience is because it may not be an experience that you can necessarily touch into your own journey.”
And so I think that's another way that churches can really take some big steps forward.
Tara: Yeah. Yeah. So good. I'm going to touch on two things here. So you said it so well, Joanna, “Wait, when you're betrayed, you're not getting casseroles and flowers at your [00:17:00] door.”
This issue is so isolating. And I think sometimes people miss the shame that a lot of betrayed partners feel. And so they too, like the person suffering from addiction, they want to pull in and isolate. And we know that's just the opposite of what we need to be doing, especially in our faith community. We're not meant to do this alone.
And I think that's one of the greatest challenges is fostering this kind of openness where we can go to church and be like, “Hey, I'm dealing with this really messy stuff,” whether it be sexual addiction, betrayal trauma, or my kids on heroin, or, you fill in the blank, but being able to foster that warm, accepting climate where we can take down the facade of perfection. Just be real.
But, and then what you had said, Matthew, I don't know where we get this, especially in a lay ministry, why we think we have to be it all and do it all and know it all. But one of the first pieces of our nine best practices is that [00:18:00] for leaders, they need to see themselves not as the fix it all, but as just the first responder, right? Like a paramedic.
Because a lot of people, their first contact when this all goes down is their faith leader. And for the faith leader to be able to maintain that role as the spiritual support, but then say, “Hey, I know about these resources. Let's get you some professional help.” And let go of the responsibility for fixing this issue. They're a part of the team, but they are not The team.
Matthew: One of the best lessons I remembered in seminary was they said, “If you survey pastors when they read a biblical story, especially in the gospels, they'll say, ‘Which character do you identify with?’”
And pastors often, and I don't think this is necessarily a negative thing, but they just naturally identify as Jesus. And they said, “If you identify as Jesus, then you're responsible, you're going to get stuck in that “responsible for everyone role.” I said, “What if we identified ourselves as one of the 12 [00:19:00] disciples, remembering that I might have a really key role in the movement of the gospel, but I'm also one of many. I am one of many who are serving under the King.”
And so I think I have to remind myself, cause that was it, right? I would read the scriptures and I need to be like Jesus, right? I've got to care for all these people, rather than recognizing I'm one of a great team and even if I'm the only lay leader over this community or the kind of senior pastor, there's still that network that I can really lean into and bring in.
Joanna: I think what you mentioned, another thing that we think is so important for churches is to have a list of resources. You don't have to provide everything this person or this couple needs for their healing journey. You are one piece in a cog. They need a lot of different ways of support. And you might be the first touch point though, if you already have safety and a relationship with them. And so your role is so vitally important to be able to point them in the right direction.
That was one of the biggest pieces in [00:20:00] our healing journey [that] Matthew mentioned. One of my very first classes in my MFT pro grad program was called “Shame and Guilt.” It's a two week intensive. And this anonymous pastor came and shared his journey of recovery. And as he was sharing his testimony, he was listing all the resources he used, the SA groups he went to, the intensive he went to, where they went for couples [therapy] and I'm like writing it down furiously because I can just tell in my gut, I'm like, “I think I need to know this.”
And so as soon as D Day happened, discovery happened, we had a path. We had a plan. And that [felt] so securing, right? It created so much hope even in the midst of that darkness. And so I think that is such a gift that churches could be able to offer individuals or couples when they are in the midst of this crisis, to go, “There is a way out and here are some of the safe resources that we have vetted, that we have relationships with and we can point you in that direction.”
Tara: [00:21:00] Perfect. Before we move beyond the betrayed partner, I wanted to ask you a follow up question, Joanna, because I think again, a big part of faith leaders being able to do this well is to have a basic understanding of what it is the partner is experiencing and what does betrayal trauma look like and how does it manifest? Because sometimes a betrayed partner comes into the office looking and sounding like a crazy person.
Joanna: Absolutely. Yes. And we've actually had conversations with faith leaders of our clients who are going, “What is going on? We feel like we are missing something,” because they haven't been trained in cycles of abuse or cycles of addiction. And so what comes into their office is very confusing. And like you said, oftentimes that partner, because she is in trauma, is experiencing things physically, emotionally, and expressing them in ways that can look crazy, in ways that feel crazy to her, right?
Most of the clients I work with go, “I don't know who I am anymore. I [00:22:00] have never gotten angry. I have never yelled. I have never thrown dishes at the wall, right? And all of a sudden, I can't stop myself.”
It's happening, right? And they are having a traumatic response in their body, and so if you do any reading on PTSD, things like that, and you look at those symptoms, a lot of partners are actually experiencing those post traumatic stress disorder symptoms. So there may be hypervigilance, which is often seen as controlling their spouse, and so understanding that as a safety seeking behavior, rather than a controlling behavior is so important, right?
Because sometimes the focus can then shift to that partner who's “controlling” rather than going, “Wait, why is this traumatized person seeking safety so aggressively? What's going on in their environment that is so traumatizing and so damaging?” That's what we need to focus on.
And there can be intrusive thoughts coming in, there can be physical [00:23:00] symptoms, loss of appetite, loss of weight. There can be depression, increased anxiety, all sorts of things that a partner can be experiencing because of that trauma. And so being able to understand that is all normal so you can appropriately identify the root cause of what's going on when you're seeing that in the room is so important rather than focusing on the symptoms that maybe you're seeing expressed on the outside. Go, “Why are those symptoms there?”
And [it’s] so amazingly healing if you can even just know enough to communicate to that partner, “What you're experiencing is normal.” They need to hear that because they feel crazy. They feel out of control. They feel scared. And to have someone come alongside and validate, “This is normal. This makes sense. And you don't have to be stuck in that place. We have resources. We have help,” is so empowering.
Tara: Yeah. That's a great explanation.
Handling Addictive Behaviors in Faith Communities
Tara: I don't know if we'll get here, but I feel like I wanted to [00:24:00] pull back as well and talk a little bit about the person that's dealing with the addictive behavior first comes to the office of a faith leader.
I wonder, Matthew, if you could share some immediate do's and don'ts as far as how to handle this person. Because I know we can either go into a shame spiral as an individual because of things that the faith leader says, or there may be too much compassion, not enough accountability. Tell us about that, Matthew. Hopefully that's not too open-ended of a question.
Matthew: Ooh, yeah. No, it is because those moments happen. I think these things happen. And I think that's wonderful. Joanna was saying that's a testimony to people feeling safe in their faith communities with their faith leaders and wanting to come to them as a resource for help.
And when that happens, I think just recognizing as a faith leader that, like we said before, this is not going to get resolved in this conversation. Really what we're trying to do, like Joanna said, is I think lay the groundwork. [00:25:00]
In some ways, it's very similar to the betrayed partner. I think one, normalizing it. And normalizing it is not excusing it. It's just recognizing what a challenging issue this is for a person. We live in a highly sexualized world. Most men are exposed to sexual images, pornography, and content well before their brain is developed to handle it, understand it, and then turn and decide whether this is healthy sexuality or not.
And I think that one of the things that pastors can do is remember that. And remember to say, “I get it, I get why you have had a really hard time discerning between what you want and what you end up doing.” So I think normalizing that, and then like Joanna said, and also letting them know, it does not have to be this way.
When she came home with that list of resources and the story of someone who made it, that was when the light went off in my head. We had been at a [00:26:00] church about two months earlier and I felt, I actually had felt God saying, “You need, you have to finally give this up. You have to name this.”
But I felt like I couldn't get out of my seat and go down forward and have someone pray over it because I didn't know what to do next. I knew that if I confessed it, there was no next step. And so one of the things that was so helpful when Joanna came in and she said, “Here's this story, here's this journey of true restoration. I was like, okay, that made letting go, that kind of confessional moment so much easier. And I think that's really key is being able to normalize it. But also really being able to talk about the way forward.
Tara: I have to follow up with a question for you, Matthew, because I don't want to forget this. I know that sometimes when individuals come in and confession is an important part of the change process and we hope that full disclosure with a qualified therapist is also happening.
But a lot of faith traditions believe in this [00:27:00] process of repentance, and that includes getting a full history of the acting out behaviors, right? So that the faith leader knows what it is we're dealing with, but also what they really need to work through and repent of. What suggestions do you make to faith leaders as they're trying to first invite that because it may not come out in one session or two.
Matthew: And I think one, knowing good reasons for resources for doing that and there are both professional and non professional. I think 12 step programs, one of the first steps, one of the common practices in the first steps is to do something similar. I'm going to really lay it out all on the table.
That was huge for my journey. And I think one of the reasons that I was able to really find a sense of freedom, was because I was challenged to take a look at the real picture. For most of my life, I had compartmentalized my sexual acting out. It was this small thing in the back that I didn't think had infected everything else.
And when I actually took the time to [00:28:00] write it down, it was interesting. It wasn't a shame inducing event, I think it was a really conviction inducing event. And it really caused me to take a sober look at what I had been doing, and how far I had moved from my core values.
And I think that's another thing that I love to remind pastors, when you meet someone who is struggling with sexual addiction, if you get to know them enough, you will see that the sexual addiction is so far from who they really are as a person. They are usually really good men, good women, they are good people, and their behavior has just moved so far from that. And that full disclosure allows them to see that but it also allows them to see the way forward, right? How I bring that integrity back into my life. Now, doing a full disclosure usually takes some work.
Understanding Sexual Addiction
Matthew: It usually requires a few things, and one of the things it usually requires is someone who understands sexual addiction. Because if you just asked me [00:29:00] 15 years ago, before I started recovery, what my problem was, what pornography was, I could throw out some numbers and some things, right? But it's usually helpful to have somebody who gets it, and I think this is why 12 step groups [and] programs are so helpful because addicts know addicts and they know the truth, right?
They know when it's not all on the level. And that's why being connected as a church to those communities, to those resources and ministries, I think is so helpful because if you don't have an addict past, it's going to be hard to draw out sometimes the truth from an addict.
And we see this with partners a lot, right? They have a really hard time understanding their spouse as an addict. And they're trying to bring out that recovery in their partners. That's going to be really hard if you've not been down that journey or you've not been trained to walk someone down that journey.
The Role of Pastors in Recovery
Matthew: So I think as a pastor, recognizing this is probably a good chance to maybe hand some of this work over to either a program or a professional. [00:30:00] But then as a pastor, what I can do is then I can come back in and what I think is really powerful is as a pastor, what I can do for this person is I can sit with them. I can let them share their testimony, their full disclosure with me, and I can be one of the first people to pronounce over them, “I still see you.”
What was so amazingly transformative about my first full disclosure to a group of men in an intensive was that I was honest, but I was also loved in the process. Those men in the room were able to look at me and they looked me in the eye and said, “I still see the good man that you are.”
And that's, I think, a role a pastor can play. And then that allows them to hold them accountable, right? Because I see who you are. I know this is not what you want in your life anymore, right? I have to imagine you're ready to let this go. And that's, I think, where that transformation really starts to take place.
Tara: Yeah. Oh, so good, [00:31:00] Matthew.
The Importance of Community Support
Tara: And I appreciate you bringing up group and community, 12 Step. We hope that you're finding a supportive community. We cannot do this work in isolation. And so for the faith leader to draw on that support as they're helping that individual work through these issues, it's going to be beneficial for both parties for sure.
And so you're going to have lots of opportunities. That person that is dealing with the addiction to get it out and it will be freeing, but it will, it's scary. And you're right. It's the faith leader's opportunity to express compassion and love and that the God of your understanding still loves you. We talk about God of our understanding to cover all of our bases here, right? You are still loved. You are still worthy of love. And that's so important. So thank you for bringing that up. So good.
Common Mistakes Churches Make
Tara: So let's move then to talking about the common mistakes churches make when they're supporting the couple. This gets really hairy because we know it's not a marriage issue.
Joanna: Yeah.
Tara: Sometimes it becomes okay, [00:32:00] a little marriage counseling in the faith leader's office and especially early on when there are safety issues that need to be addressed and we need safety and stabilization. Tell us. Where do we even start there?
Joanna: One of the most important pieces to understand is exactly what you said. This is not a marriage issue. So in the beginning, the work, the support needs to be very individualized, usually for the husband and the wife.
Addressing Individual and Couple Issues
Joanna: And a lot of churches do that well, but what can happen is those ministries supporting the betrayal trauma side and the addiction side, they're very siloed and very disconnected from each other. And where we've seen it do a lot of damage to couples and even a lot of damage in the actual church, in between ministries, is when there's one thing being told to the husbands, something slightly different being told to the wives. Then you send them home and man, those relationship issues that are there also just escalate and it gets worse. [00:33:00]
So being able to have a very, even though those may be separate ministries, supporting different people, having a lot of integration at that top level of the ministry, making sure that there is shared understandings of the system and what's going on between the addiction, between the traumatized partner and how we talk about that crossover there.
I think that it's such a vital starting place for churches to understand.
Matthew: And know that they may not always talk about the sex addiction as the issue. We have had couples come into our office and work with us professionally for months before the issue of sexual addiction and pornography comes up.
Joanna: And so we hit the brakes and go, “Okay, guys, scratch all of that. We're starting for real now.”
Matthew: As a pastor, you may have someone coming in saying, “We have communication issues,” or “We're having sexual issues,” or “We're having parenting issues.” [00:34:00] And so I think just being able to recognize that fact.
We like to say that when a couple comes in with betrayal and especially if they've been married for any length of time, they're usually dealing with a heart attack and cancer. The heart attack is the betrayal. It's the addiction and if you do not deal with that first and you do not deal with that immediately they will die on the table, right?
So if you start talking about, “Let's talk about your communication and let's talk about what your views are on money and parenting and scheduling,” that couple can't make it. And what's true is that even if they address some of the kind of addiction issues, they probably have common couple issues.
They probably do have communication issues. They probably do fight about money and sex. And so recognizing we're going to have to go back and do chemo and do all the long term work that a cancer process would look like.
I think what happens with pastors often and with anyone who's supporting a couple because you could be someone a couple just reaches out to, someone that they trust and they start telling you about their [00:35:00] struggles, recognizing [that] there's a lot that's gonna need to happen. We need to focus on the things that are gonna do the most damage first, right? And once there is that kind of understanding, that there is either some type of destructive sexuality, potentially sexual addiction, we need to address that first.
And Joanna said, that's a really separate addressing. The couple's still married. They're usually often living together, which is fine, right? They're still trying to figure out how to be a team in that. But the work is really separated until that really individual healing process can occur. So the relational healing process can then begin.
Tara: Yeah, I love that. We've got a heart attack and cancer and we gotta address the heart attack first. That makes so much sense.
I wonder because we know that so many couples are dealing with this. I don't know what the stats are on that, but the Wheatley Institute out of BYU did a study just on pornography. I don't know if they were looking at other problematic [00:36:00] sexual behaviors, but pornography itself, one in five couples were dealing with this issue. And I thought, “That seems a little low to me.”
It is one in five couples [who] have named it, were brave enough to say it. But I think, and you tell me your thoughts on this because we don't like to make assumptions, but knowing that this is something that's so pervasive in our culture, in our society, do you even suggest to faith leaders to just ask the question like, “Is this something that's been a part of your relationship?” without the couple bringing it up?
Joanna: Absolutely. Yeah, we do. Yeah, I don't know if you've heard of “Prepare and Enrich.” It's an assessment that you do for couples. Often it's a premarital assessment or for couples. You want to enrich their marriage along the way, right? And so that's absolutely one of the questions.
And it's “Do you view your pornography?” And then “Does your spouse view pornography?” And it's really interesting when you get different [00:37:00] answers. And man, so much information about what's going on in the relationship, just with those two questions and having them answer it separately.
And so I'd say you always, whenever you're working with a couple on any issue, it's important to ask about that and their sexual relationship, because those are often things they feel very uncomfortable bringing up just because of the taboos around talking about those things in our culture, especially in our churches and they feel uncomfortable, right?
So you have to normalize it. You have to let them know this is an open conversation. This is a safe place to talk about that. And oftentimes it won't come up unless you initiate that. And so it's really important that you're comfortable talking about it, initiating it. So that may even need to be a first starting place.
Tara: I like this idea of an assessment. Even being able to put it on paper feels a little less scary, I think, for some couples.
Joanna: It can be tricky if you have a couple in there and you ask that question. [00:38:00] We know from personal experience. Early on, right? You're asking for honesty, but you don't know if the spouse knows the honest truth.
So you're putting them in a position to either be dishonest or potentially traumatize their spouse. So it does get a little tricky. So you have to be a little bit sensitive about what the question is that you're asking, how you ask it and then how you follow up depending on what answers you're getting, if that kind of makes sense.
Tara: Yeah. No, that's a really good point and I hadn't even considered that. So for our faith leaders who are listening, thinking through how do you address this without putting this couple in a situation where they've come to you with another problem. Maybe they're being brave and talking about some of their sexual issues, but it's like, “How can we bring this up so that we're most likely to get the truth and not drop a bomb on a partner?”
Joanna: [00:39:00] Exactly. Yeah.
Tara: Okay.
The Three Phases of Rebuilding Intimacy
Tara: Let's get into, you talk about the three phases of rebuilding relational intimacy after betrayal. And I think, I'm sure this would be helpful for faith leaders to hear and just the general audience. What are those three phases?
Matthew: Yeah. I think that simply, phase one is recovery. We call it the recovery phase. And this is the phase most people are familiar with. And it is that phase, really, about individual healing.
If I am struggling with the addiction, this is the phase in which I'm dealing with that addiction. I'm dealing with maybe my propensity to lie or deceive and to hide. I'm dealing with those underlying issues that we talked about. Maybe that's childhood trauma, maybe that's exposure, maybe that is some type of sexual abuse that I went through. And I am trying to recover that integrity. I'm trying to rebuild who I am, what my core values are and how I operate.
Because without that, it's chaos, right? [00:40:00] So outside of recovery, even if there's disclosure, disclosure does not create safety. It will create awareness. It's going to create some information, but it doesn't create safety, and so recovery is how I really think about restoring honesty and safety into the relationship by really becoming a person of integrity, as the addict.
Joanna: Yes, and so the next stage after that we call restoration. So this is when there's that honesty, that safety has really been rebuilt for each individual, even for the relationship. and they're ready to start pushing into trust. This is when they're ready to start pushing back into the relationship, rebuilding trust, maybe beginning the beginning stages of a forgiveness process, starting to be able to think about ourselves as a team again.
What does that look like? Maybe there's some level of what we would call couples grieving as they are coming [00:41:00] in together and starting to do more of that work together to really restore the damage that's been done to that relationship.
Matthew: And the third phase is the renewal phase. This is the phase, it's actually a really fun phase. This is the phase where the couple really gets to reimagine who they are and what they want to be.
We have a group program that we developed called “Renewing Us,” and it's for couples that have been through betrayal and been through infidelity and addiction and they recognize, if we're gonna go through all that work of recovery and restoration, it better be worth it. And it's been amazing. We get these couples that come to us and they're like “We want to be really great.” Which we love because that's what we went through.
I think we wanted a great marriage. We didn't want to survive. We wanted to thrive and so that third phase is where the couple really gets to reimagine who they are and really reimagine their purpose. So many couples who've been through this end up in some type of ministry or [00:42:00] leadership. Sometimes they go into professional work like we have.
And that's wonderful. And so we really love supporting couples through all these three phases because they're really important and they're different. And sometimes in recovery, I think a lot of couples, all they know about is that first phase, right?
We're just getting out of the chaos. They're not really aware of some of those amazing later stages that really give them the life, the relationships, right? The kind of day to day interactions they've always wanted.
Joanna: And that's what we're really passionate about is helping couples understand that full journey, what that can look like. And so we actually detail that in the intimacy pyramid we developed with Dan Drake. And so that's that couple's healing journey. And so we write in a lot more detail in our book, Building True Intimacy, about those different levels, how to build them, what it looks like, all of those things.
Tara: First of all, I love the hope that I hear because I think for a lot of people, I've seen it in observing my parents and others, [00:43:00] I know that you can be on the other side of this with a happier, healthier, more thriving relationship , even more than before everything went down. But my parents are genuinely happy. They've been married for over 50 years and doing so well.
And so we know that it can happen, but we need sometimes just hopeful stories to keep us moving because there are a lot of ups and downs in recovery work. And we might take a couple steps forward and one step back if we're not really working it, right? But you had talked a little bit about the first phase that was just dealing with the initial, like the addiction, the trauma and then in the second phase, working toward trust.
Supporting Couples Through Recovery
Tara: And this is a huge thing that I think oftentimes faith leaders want to rush. So talk to me about giving space for betrayed partners and members of the family, including children. [00:44:00] You pace themselves as they're working toward forgiveness and trust.
Matthew: Yeah, absolutely. And it is hard because when there isn't full trust in the relationship, it can feel really scary. It can. And as somebody who betrayed the trust of our relationship, really destroyed it and knew that it wasn't going to be just given back overnight. That was scary for me. I'm sure it was scary for our friends, for people who knew us and saw some of the disconnect in our relationship.
And so it's really tempting for a lot of people on the outside to want to push that pressure on the person who's been hurt to say, “Hey, let's move forward,” and I think just recognizing when a betrayed spouse goes and meets with a counselor or joins a support group, they are practicing forgiveness and they're moving forward. They're rebuilding trust in doing that. When they give space for their spouse to go to a two week intensive and to get healing, to go to a 12 step group every night and to leave that betrayed partner at home, taking care of the kids, that is the work [00:45:00] of restoring trust and that's the work of forgiveness that's actually taking place.
And so I think recognizing that, being able to name that that's happening, and if maybe it's not right, maybe that betrayed partner is struggling with it, recognizing that's a part of the process too, right? That safety seeking. Trying to figure it out because yeah, absolutely, the moment you put pressure on a person to forgive, you will cut off the artery, right? The kind of the lifeblood of that forgiveness process.
Joanna: Oh, and it's also good to remember that if there is pressure being put on someone to trust or forgive, it's coming out of the other person's pain, the other person's discomfort with the reality of what they are seeing or experiencing. And this is what we tell the men we work with in recovery so often, “Your job is to be trustworthy. It's not to be trusted.” But they think it's to be trusted.
So I got to get this person here [00:46:00] to trust me so I know I'm doing my job. And that's when recovery is more of a performance or a control [thing]. That's what we would call it, right? This coping behavior out of my own pain and discomfort. Rather than if I go, “Wait, my role is to show up trustworthy.”
Guess what? I have 100 percent control over that. And it doesn't depend on my partner trusting me. It doesn't depend on their healing process or how quickly that is going, right? And so all of a sudden I get to let go of the outcome and I get to focus on my role.
Tara: Yeah. Forgiveness is a gift that we can give ourselves eventually. But trust needs to be built, and it's going to be drop by drop, and I really like how you put that. You've got to give people time and space for that. But I believe it will come as you are working to be trustworthy. That's going to be a natural outgrowth.
Joanna: A hundred percent.
Matthew: I tell the guys I work with, “You can determine the timeline in terms of how long you extend it. The more [00:47:00] pressure you put, the more expectation you put on that person, you're just drawing that timeline out. So if you'd like that trust to be kept away for a long time, just put pressure after pressure.”
Tara: That's funny.
The Role of the Church in Healing
Tara: Last question here. How can the church partner with or support individuals and couples in the three phases then, because you talked about these three phases. What might that look like for a faith leader?
Joanna: Yeah, I think in the beginning phase, having someone there who can just hold the pain of both people, that you have a place for them to go to share, that will be non judgmental, that will have resources that can point them to you, right?
I think of, again, oftentimes, couples don't know where to go, what to do, and that church or that faith leader is their first point of contact, that EMT, right? And so being prepared to hold the pain, to sit and grieve with them, and then empower them to begin [00:48:00] healing. I think that is so important. So powerful.
And then if possible, if your church has the resources to have some of those early community ministries, kind of support groups of other people who are going through that journey, right? Because I think another important piece early on is to know, “I am not alone.” It helps break down the silence, break down the shame that can really hinder the healing of those people and really provide them again, that safe space to get started in community.
Matthew: And then that middle space, that restoration space, I think just a thing that the church can do is, as you mentioned, just remembering that the trust rebuilding process is a long process. It's not usually linear, right? It's messy. There's some movements forward, some movements back. So I think just maintaining that encouragement for the couple, helping to normalize it.
I think for an addict, that struggle, “Hey, I know you want to be trusted right now. Let's focus on your trustworthiness. And remember that the trust will take care of itself over time. Let's really hone in on that.” Creating that [00:49:00] space, not feeling the need to rush couples through the process, to feel like this has to happen on this timeline. And really being able to normalize that
Joanna: And I think the last one is for renewal. This one's really exciting for churches. I think churches are really equipped to come alongside a couple who's experienced this transformation and experienced this healing to really discover, “What is God calling us to do? What is our new purpose? We went through this journey for a reason. God called us together and got us through this for a reason, for a purpose. What is that?”
And so helping them discern what that is and even giving a voice to that purpose. One of the amazing pieces, I don't know if we've shared kind of the end of that story, of that pastor coming, this anonymous pastor coming to this class, sharing the story, that testimony, really being the first instigator of our transformation journey. Five years later, we found ourselves in a new city, [00:50:00] working at a church trying to figure out what God is calling us to do with our story. And we got connected to a pastor of another church who wanted to start a marriage and recovery ministry.
Someone had mentioned our names and Matthew began telling our early story of the recovery of that pastor in my class. And that pastor said, “That was my story.” And Matthew thought, “Oh, yes, you've been on this journey too,” because we knew he had a story of recovery. He said, “No. I was that pastor in your wife's class five years ago.”
Tara: Oh, wow.
Joanna: And so full circle. We ended up working at that church helping them start a recovery and marriage ministry, mentoring, guiding couples in that congregation through their story of betrayal. To the point where they were on stage giving testimonies and it's so exciting to see that healing transformative power being passed down as people are living into their calling and following their purpose.
Tara: I love that. [00:51:00] In the 12 steps, our 12th step is giving back. And I know that's been a big part of my parents experience, what has helped facilitate their own healing is giving away what they've been given and sharing their story of hope. And so I love that you are doing that.
And what a miracle. That's so cool. That turnaround five years later, I was like, “Hey! That's amazing.” And that's the ultimate hope. There's so much joy in being able to share the hope of recovery for individuals and families. That's why I'm here. It's not always an easy job and sometimes it can feel discouraging, but we see these examples like you that are making beautiful things out of your ashes.
And so that's the hope for our faith leaders and others who have been listening, we hope this has been helpful. I know that there will be some people that are interested in connecting with you. Where's the best place for people to find you?
Matthew: Yeah, we'll actually put a link in the show notes. And one of the things they can do, we love to give resources out, because resources helped us, worksheets and ways to [00:52:00] connect. And so we created a couple’s connection, just a daily check in. This can be used with couples who are in recovery. Any couple actually could use this. And it's just a format to give them a really safe structure to share and to reflect on their day to day life.
We have a 30 day challenge for them. Because what we have found is that when couples are talking every day, just checking in on what their life was like and sharing that with their partner, it is incredibly strengthening to their relationship. But it's also really personally healing. So that's a free resource we'd love to give to your community.
They can go check out the link and they'll get signed up for that. And they can be a part of that resource and a part of that challenge. And so we'd love for them to connect with us there.
Tara: Great. We'll make sure that gets in the show notes. And before I let you go, the final question we always ask.
Hope and Encouragement for Couples
Tara: So what would you tell a couple that's just starting this recovery journey?
It can be really scary on the offset, but on the other side, for those who've been doing this work for a while, what would you tell them?
Matthew: I think for a couple that just comes in, [00:53:00] we have this conversation a lot, and I think just being able to let them know there is a really wonderful marriage on the other side of this.
That if you are willing, I just love 12 step language, it works if you work it. If you do the work, you will have something that was worth all of it. When we started our recovery, we were struggling financially. We were taking loans to pay for counseling. We were doing anything we could to get to the resources to help us survive.
But man, the life we get to live because of what we invested and the work that we did at that time. And I would just let them know it is there. If you want it, it is there.
Joanna: Yeah. I think for couples who have been in it a while there, that could be a very different experience. Sometimes they've been in a while and it's been hard, right?
And I would say, “Don't give up.” We have a lot of couples who have been doing recovery for two, three, five more years and they're feeling really stuck, but they didn't give up and they keep looking for resources that fit for where [00:54:00] they're at and they are out there. And so I would say encourage them to find the resources that really fit for you, fit for where you're at.
And then for those couples who are doing well and want to keep growing, I would say first of all, just for all of the couples, guess what? The work never ends. It never ends. Get really comfortable with the reality of “we’re going to be working on our relationship the rest of our life.” But that work can be a joy. Hopefully you start to experience that.
What we have found so powerful for couples who’ve been doing it for a while is to get connected to other couples, to another community of couples who get it. That is such a powerful step because even if people are coming out of the individual isolation [and] finding groups and communities, it's still pretty rare that couples are finding community with other couples who understand that story and that experience. And that's the huge reason that we started the “Renewing Us” couples group cohort program.
But being [00:55:00] able to facilitate those spaces, I think it's just really exciting, really life-giving, really encouraging to keep doing the work, right? Because you're like, “Oh, we have to keep doing this forever. That sounds a little tiring and exhausting.” All of a sudden, when you're in a community of other couples who are really excited about that, you're like, “I am re-energized and yes, let's do this.” And I think that can be a really powerful step that just brings the energy, the life back into that process.
Tara: So good. I've loved this. You're both delightful, I can see that. It's been worth the journey. You guys are a powerful team. And again, appreciate your time today. Thank you for the great work that you're doing.
Joanna: So great being here. Thank you so much.
