The SAL Recovery Puzzle - Rigorous Honesty w/ Steve T

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In this episode of the Pathway to Recovery podcast, co-host Justin B, has an interesting and meaningful conversation with Steve T., a recovering sex and multidisciplinary addict. They delve into the topic of rigorous honesty, a key piece of the new SAL recovery puzzle. The conversation highlights the importance of complete honesty in the recovery journey, addressing how self-deception and partial honesty can hinder true healing. Steve shares personal experiences, offering insights on the necessity of rigorous self-examination, acceptance, and turning outward to serve others as essential steps for lasting recovery. The episode also includes an introduction to the new SAL recovery book and puzzle, emphasizing the transformative power of God and community in overcoming addiction.

00:00 Introduction and Announcements

01:18 Guest Introduction: Meet Steve T

01:57 Understanding Multidisciplinary Addiction

04:27 The Root of Addiction: Selfishness and Self-Centeredness

06:22 The Solution: Connecting with God and Serving Others

10:37 The SAL Recovery Puzzle: Rigorous Honesty

13:34 The Importance of Rigorous Honesty in Recovery

26:29 Acceptance and Control in Recovery

37:40 Final Thoughts and Advice for Newcomers

Transcript

Introduction: 0:23

Understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and material trauma because we believe in healing individuals.

Justin B: 0:35

Welcome everybody to the Pathway to Recovery podcast. I'm Justin B. I am grateful to be the co-host of this podcast along with Tara McCausland. We are doing this as a joint venture between SA Lifeline Foundation and SAL 12 Step. And as we have just started, we are diving into the new SAL Recovery Puzzle with various guests who will be speaking on the various topics related to the puzzle pieces. Today we'll be talking about rigorous honesty, and I'll have Steve T as my guest with me today. But before we get to him, I just want to make a couple of quick announcements that are SAL and SA Lifeline related. One, the new SAL book is out. You can purchase it by going to the website and ordering it there, and they'll get it to you. That's been a long-awaited thing. I'm super excited about several pieces of this new book. We're including the 12 traditions of SAL in it, which is new. The 12 tenets have been slightly updated and reordered, but the big part that we're going to be focusing on, like I said, for the next oh several months, is the new SAL recovery puzzle. All right. So that's the announcements I have. Now let's jump into this conversation with Steve. So, Steve, why don't you take just a minute, introduce yourself, and tell us why the heck you're in the rooms of SAL?

Steven T: 1:59

Thank you, Justin. My name's Steve T, and I'm a recovery sex addict and a multidisciplinary addict. I find a lot of ways I use to escape the ups and downs of life. And I have been in the rooms of recovery for 15 plus years and been sober for the last three years from sexual addiction. And I am here because I am sick and sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Justin B: 2:30

I think that's a good start. I would like to ask you a question, but for those listening that hear you say, I'm a multidisciplinary addict, talk us through that. What does that mean?

Steven T: 2:39

Oh, great question. What I have found is that I have a tendency towards compulsive addictive behavior. Full stop. Which means that you know what? Like I've got a lot of different ways that I can numb out. It might be my news feed, it might be energy drinks, it might be oh, what else do I use? I've used gaming, I've used prescription medication. Oh, food. Don't forget food. That's a big one. And porn and sex, that was my primary one from a very young age. So for me, there's lots of different ways I can slide into compulsive addictive behaviors and tendencies to just numb, whether it's stress or whatever it might be.

Justin B: 3:33

So often we hear about I address that primary addiction, the core addiction, and then it shifts, it slides to something else. What do you think the purpose is, or not the purpose, but why do you think that happens? Sliding from one practice or substance or whatever it may be to another in your experience.

Steven T: 3:54

I know for me that from my experience, I read one time about how when I stopped my addiction, basically I've removed my coping mechanism. I've just removed it. And so now when I get stressed or angry or worked up or feeling shame, my character weaknesses become a lot more apparent, they come out a lot faster, right? They emerge. And and I think that my addiction isn't my problem, it's my solution. And you've just removed my solution, and so I go find a new solution. I go binging in the fridge or pantry, I'll go scroll my news feed till one o'clock in the morning, but I gotta be up at six because I got a meeting. So that's what I think is in my experience. I feel like I do.

Justin B: 4:49

And let's have this conversation a little bit before we jump into that recovery puzzle. You said, hey, the acting out behavior, that's my solution. It's not necessarily my problem. So in your experience, what is the problem, and how do we get to the root of that problem?

Steven T: 5:07

What a great question. Yeah, that's the $64 million question. You figure that out, and you've solved world peace. I'm a big proponent, like the big book, like they've been doing this for 90 years. There, and I love what it says in the big book selfishness, self-centeredness. This we think is the root of our problems, and it emerges in so many different ways. I'm like the actor who wants to run the show. I want to tell the music when to come in and put the set and the ballet. And if everyone would just stay where I put, it's all about me. And it's interesting because even when I'm in shame and fear, focus is here. Because fight or flight is all about survival, and it's very self-absorbed, very self-centered, very self-focused, even in that. And so my philosophy is self is the root of it all.

Justin B: 6:05

Yeah, I love that. And that's really become my philosophy too, is that selfishness, self-centeredness. I've always heard that's the root of all my problems and all my troubles. But it didn't make sense until I started defining what self is, what that selfishness is. Sure, selfishness and self-centeredness that sounds great, but what does that really mean? And as I started realizing, I'm driven by a hundred forms of madness, whether it be selfishness, self-centeredness, resentment, fear, whatever that may be, but all of it is centered, like you said, it's focused right here on myself. Even if I'm fearful of something out there, guess what? It's me trying to protect myself from that thing out there, and it's all selfishness. Do you have any other thoughts on that, Steve?

Steven T: 6:55

No, no, I love where you're looking and what you're describing. And I think that the next part of your question was all right, what's the solution? And I love what the big book says, and I'm not going to paraphrase this because it says it better than I do. This is the how and the why of it, right? First of all, we have to quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our director, he is the principal, we are his agent, he is the father, we are his children. And if I stay close to him and do his work, man, it's amazing what happens when that happens. And it's counterintuitive when I'm in fear and when I'm overwhelmed, it's counterintuitive for me to go serve someone else or reach out to someone else. It doesn't make sense. The math doesn't add up because my brain is trying to survive, and it's all about me, but it works. And I a power flows in when I let go of me and reach out to someone else or something else that's outside of me.

Justin B: 8:10

The purpose of the 12 steps is to have a spiritual awakening and to become a new creature, to give myself to this higher power, greater this power that's greater than myself to lead me and guide me. But I found that the fruit of that is I fit myself to be of maximum service to God and to my fellows. And so the solution to me is connect with God and then turn outward, get out of self and start serving and working with others. And that's why my sponsor told me when we finished up the steps, he said, All right, it's time for you to get a sponsee. I was like, I'm not ready to sponsor, but I can't do that. And he said, Congratulations, you just worked an 11-step program, get out of my house. I don't want to see anymore, basically. That's the purpose is to give back and focus on others and get out of focusing on self. Do you have any experiences where focusing outward saved you from addiction disaster?

Steven T: 9:07

I am a very big proponent of what Bill W describes, right? That when all other measures failed, work with another alcoholic saved the day. This design for living that works in rough going. And I have a little sticky note on my computer that is my recipe for stinking thinking. And it's a list of six or seven things that when I'm in that negative headspace, triggered or in the middle, like in a really bad place, I just start going down that list. And service is number four on the list, and reaching out to someone is number five. And I feel like maybe a good example actually was just Saturday when my sponsee called with a kind of a big issue, big challenge that he was in the middle of. Now I wasn't in the middle of a trigger right at that moment, but what I found is he and I talked and we asked the question, all right, what does the program say is the solution? Right, let go of self, surrender to God, resentment, fear, etc., and ask for the willingness and power to as we started talking through the solution, what it reinforced for me, yet again, was that this is what I want. This is the life I want, a life of recovery. I feel like I'm the bigger recipient when I am helping and reaching out to others, or when they reach out to me and I'm just a peer, like I'm just another addict at the end of the day. And the only thing I have and can share is my own experience and what my journey has been. When I've experienced something similar, there's something that is magnified or that happens when I do that. I have found. And I'm changed by it.

Justin B: 11:11

As I mentioned at the get-go, you and I were going to be talking about one of the puzzle pieces from the new SAL recovery puzzle. And it's the second piece that we're addressing. Last time I did Willing Heart with Roxana and had a great conversation with her. Today we're going to do the next piece, which is entitled Rigorous Honesty. But what I'd like to do, Steve, is just read a couple of paragraphs from page 105 of the new book that introduces the recovery puzzle, and I'll read the second piece, Rigorously Honest, and then let's talk a little bit about that, and then we'll do a little bit more later on in this same chapter that addresses rigorous honesty at that point. So I'm going to read here for just a minute. The SAL recovery puzzle. A puzzle is not complete without every piece in its place. Likewise, every unique piece of the SAL recovery puzzle is an important part of a comprehensive program of working recovery from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. The 12 pieces of the puzzle are separated into two parts. First part is the inner seven pieces representing the heart and mind, which are the beginning elements of recovery. And the second part are the five border pieces representing the action elements of recovery work. So if you out there in the listening audience want a visual of this, get the book, or you can go to sasifeline.org and look up recovery puzzle. That image is there, so you can see what that looks like. It is our experience that the 12 pieces of the SAL Recovery Puzzle synergistically work together to promote healthy living. With a willing heart, purposefully in the center, and incorporating the principles in our lives described in the puzzle pieces, we experience connection with our fellows and with the God of our understanding who heals our heart and mind. Living in recovery and healing from compulsive pornography use, sexual addiction, and betrayal trauma is possible. We assure you it happens. The SAL Recovery Puzzle illustrates the twelve essential pieces that are required for lasting recovery. Now I'm going to go in and on we've already done willing heart. I'm going to read Rigorous Honesty. It's the second piece and it reads this rigorously honest. We choose to be completely honest and transparent and hold our actions and attitudes up to the light of day. Living in recovery means practicing this open, humble, honest way of living one day at a time. When we are honest, we are ready to place our total dependence upon the God of our understanding as the foundation of our recovery. Honest and here's a quote by Anna Lempke, who's been a guest on this podcast before. Honesty enhances awareness, creates more satisfying relationships, holds us accountable to a more authentic narrative, and strengthens our ability to delay gratification. It may even prevent the future development of addiction. And that's from her book, Dopamine Nation. So as I read through those things, Steve, before we jump into the next part, was there anything that jumped out at you that you'd like to make a comment on?

Steven T: 14:15

I would say I don't know, I have so much of it underlined and circled. I think that honesty is one of the very first things that has to happen in our recovery journey. If we're not 100% honest, if we're holding back just a part, there's no way that we can't because what it talks about here is when we're honest, we're ready to place our total dependence upon the God of our understanding. That requires total honesty to place total dependence upon him. If we're holding a piece back or anything like that, we are incapable of really offering the total dependence that we need to place on God.

Justin B: 15:13

I love what you said there, and that harkens back to when you reference the big book and the director of the play. If I'm not honest about where God wants me to be in that play, and I say, you know what? Nope. Today, God, I want to be the supporting actor, or I want to control the lights. And there's some dishonesty that's holding that role back.

Steven T: 15:33

Yeah, and what I've experienced for myself is that for I feel like for years, I was not being fully honest in my own recovery journey. There was always a part of me that was like, okay, let's get past this. I want to graduate and move on from this. I want to fix this and be done, right? And so there's a part of me that resisted accepting the truth that this is part of me, and I may struggle with this my whole life. I would shut the door to that. I wasn't open to that. And so I resisted that. And I think that I struggled with my recovery until I got to the point where I'm like, okay, if I have to do this till I die, so be it. When I crossed that threshold, something shifted. And and it required brutal, rigorous honesty to really look at and own the truth of the fact that I was never going to get to a place where I could handle it, where I could do it on my own and I could move on.

Justin B: 16:46

Man, so I was recording for another project this morning, and we were talking about the difference between getting well or being well and being cured. Now you talked about, hey, I had to finally get to the point where I was willing to do whatever it took for as long as it took, even if it was for the rest of my life, in order to get well. And I think the honesty part of that, at least the way I heard that, is recognizing that I may never be cured from this, but I can get well.

Steven T: 17:18

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it can be likened to pick your disease, cancer, diabetes, right? Like you have to take your medicine, you have to take the treatment, and you know what? It'll put the cancer in remission or the diabetes will like you can live a good and healthy life, and it will be completely in remission, gone for all intents and purposes. But what happens if I stop taking treatment? If I stop using what got me healthy. Life ebbs and flows, it goes up and down, and it's just waiting for a downflow so that it can try and interject itself back in.

Justin B: 18:09

Yeah, absolutely. And that's I love that analogy, and I just feel that it's very true that my addiction, the self, the selfishness, self-centeredness is there. Just saying, as soon as you're put down your defenses, as soon as you don't take your medication for today, I'm gonna try and weasel my way in there, and I'm gonna come through as quick and or easily either as sneakily as I can or as powerfully as I can, whatever's gonna work best today. Yeah, good. Is there anything else in those opening paragraphs that stick out to you that you'd like to touch base on before I jump over to the section on page 119?

Steven T: 18:49

I guess the one thing that I really had circled and underlined is that honesty is like this is a critical foundational piece. There's so much that it does, it talks about enhancing awareness, creates more satisfying relationships, holds us accountable. Like it, there's a lot of things that if we are that level of rigorous honesty, it has a domino effect and cascading effect on different facets of our lives. And that really struck me.

Justin B: 19:26

Yeah, thank you for sharing. One more question on that. In your experience, is it easier to be 98% honest or a hundred percent honest?

Steven T: 19:37

Oh, it's absolutely easier to be a hundred percent honest, but boy, do I fight it.

Justin B: 19:45

Man, me too, man.

Steven T: 19:47

I just I do this, and you know what? I'm the biggest sucker, right? Like, I'm the the joke's on me when I'm not a hundred percent honest, like I'm the one who suffers, Steve.

Justin B: 20:00

When you find yourself being 98% honest instead of 100% honest, how do you address that? Is that something that you do immediately or as soon as you recognize it? Do you stew on it for a while? What's your pattern in addressing that when you get caught when the joke's on you and you get caught in that?

Steven T: 20:19

Well, I think that there's a couple of things, and it really depends on my headspace. Because if I'm not in a great headspace, then I'll just kind of push it off, and that's dangerous. Kick the can down the road. Problem is it's not a can, it's a snowball. And guess what happens when snowballs roll, right? They get bigger, and that's so dangerous. Now, if I'm in a good place and I recognize, oh, there it is, I don't trust my own thinking or judgment because my own best thinking got me into this mess. And so I check it with my sponsor, I check it with others in the program. I reach out to my network and I check my thinking with those that I trust. And then I say, tell me what because again, I have this pattern and tendency to lie to myself and to believe my own lies. So I don't know if I'm just playing myself again. Fortunately, and this is so critical, I need people in my life who are not going to sugarcoat it who will be blunt and honest with me and will tell me what they see. And I am fortunate to have a network of people like that who I can lean into and call on to help protect against those tendencies to kind of slide into the 98 and two, it's dangerous because it's so close.

Justin B: 21:40

Yeah. So often when I find myself sliding into that 2% dishonesty, 98% honesty, it's because I'm seeking a softer, easier way. Yeah, you know what? If I'm honest here, it's gonna hurt. I always say it's gonna hurt the person, yeah. It's gonna hurt that person, but in reality, it's the selfishness, self-centeredness. It's really gonna hurt me because that person's gonna get angry at me or whatever it may be. Let's dive a little bit deeper on that. Softer, easier ways and rigorous honesty. How do those correlate?

Steven T: 22:12

Oh man, it's the difference between just like honesty ticking the box and rigorous honesty where you've left no stone unturned. And in my mind, this is why the scrutiny and the help of the perspectives of others are so critically important, especially other addicts who've walked the path. They have how do I put this? They've been BSers, so they can call me on my BS. Their BS meter is very high. They can see BS because they've done it, they know what it looks like.

Justin B: 22:46

Yeah. Good. And this, I think this builds on that. Back on page 119, under the second section of this, where we dive deeper into the rigorously honest, that second paragraph of that. We do not trick ourselves into believing that we are working on recovery when we really are just going through the motions of recovery. We can attend groups, meet with a therapist, set boundaries, and read educational books, all without being honest. I think you referenced that. Hey, I can tick the boxes, or I can turn over every stone. Talk a little bit more about that here in relation to what we just read there.

Steven T: 23:21

Oh boy. This really hits home. Personal experience last week, I was not in a great headspace and struggling with some of my compulsive addictive tendencies from doom scrolling to eating to caffeine, and not wanting to be honest with myself or with others about it. And I was doing this, trying to tick the box and convince myself or believe that I was going through the motions of recovery. And it's ironic that you and I were planning on having this very discussion. And I read this and I'm just like, I was convicted. I was like, oh my goodness, I am doing that very thing right now. And I don't see recovery, real recovery, this is really important. Everyone needs to understand that real recovery is not gonna be a pathway of roses and smooth and pretty, and you've arrived, and all is good for the rest of your life. Guess what? It's gonna ebb and flow, and there'll be days where I'm sliding back into these old tendencies of self-deception yet again. And I don't want to go to a place of shame. Shame is dangerous, it is a real dangerous place, and so I need to get up as quickly as possible. And I've heard it said running a race falls down. He doesn't go to back to the starting line to finish the race. Like he doesn't restart the race, he gets up and keeps running. And in my mind, this is the same. When I start to slip into tricking myself into believing that I'm working recovery, I'm going to meetings and I'm making a phone call now and then. This is why it's so critical to have meetings and sponsor the net of support that I've placed around me is gonna kick in and help call me on my BS.

Justin B: 25:24

Yeah, that's uh it's so funny. Is I am doing these conversations and looking for people that would be guests that could be interesting and share on these topics. The first thought in my mind, in this addict's mind, is I need to find somebody who's absolutely perfect at this puzzle piece. And if they're not, I don't want them on here. But I think there is so much value to find somebody, like you said, that hey, I fall on my face sometimes. But man, I try and get back up and get right back at it and get back to 100% rigorous honesty as quickly as I can because, well, it works while the other stuff I fall on my face when it doesn't work. Do you have any other thoughts on that concept there?

Steven T: 26:12

The thought that just struck me, and I just read the very first sentence of the next paragraph we must do these things with rigorous honesty if we want real change in healing. Like if you want, if you legit want to change and to heal, like you have to go all in. You cannot hold anything back. No tricking yourselves anymore, no tricking myself anymore. I have to be free of that. And like the selfishness, right? If I'm not, it will kill me.

Justin B: 26:48

What are some other aspects of rigorous honesty or of doing more than just checking the boxes in recovery and in life that you want to share with us?

Steven T: 27:00

Okay. I was surprised on page 120 when it quoted page 417 of the big book, talking about acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. This is one of my favorite quotes in the big book. I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation is being exactly the way it's supposed to be at this moment. I'm not very good at doing that. Not very good at accepting. And it talks about how the statements, the beginning of being rigorously honest. We have to accept what we see, we have to accept what is in our life, whether we like it or not. And there is someone far smarter than I am that is managing it all. I feel like one of the deceptions is I feel like I'm gonna give God some advice about how to run the world. Like I know better than he does, but boy, do I acceptance is there's something deeply profound about that, and something very liberating too. That if I can let go of just the control, my preconceived notions, my expectations of what I think the best way is, and trust that there is a plan, the universe, God, nothing happens in his world by mistake. And boy, that takes a burden off of my shoulders a ton.

Justin B: 28:33

It does. Now I'm gonna push back on this a little bit, Steve, because there's gonna be a lot of people listening to this that is-I cannot accept that my husband is acting out right now. I cannot accept that is exactly how it is supposed to be. Or there's addicts who are saying, I cannot accept that my wife is not working on her own recovery to find healing in this. I cannot accept that. That's not how I want it to be. Let's talk about that a little bit and how do we, I don't know, find peace or start moving towards whatever change needs to be made.

Steven T: 29:07

Ah, that's such a great point. So, what do you do when confronted with that? Tell me your thoughts.

Justin B: 29:16

Yeah, I'm happy to do that. And my thoughts, I'm cheating. I'm plagiarizing this a little bit here. Yeah, and jumping down to the last phrase of that quote from the big book. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world, needs to be changed to my spouse, needs to be changed to my kids, needs to be changed to my job, whatever it is. I need not concentrate so much on that as on what needs to be changed in me and my attitudes. Now that's a painful concept right there. If my spouse is acting out or not working recovery, what do I change in myself to find that peace and practice acceptance? And that's painful, but I think there's a lot of truth in that. Do you have any thoughts on that, Steve?

Steven T: 30:02

Yeah, I have a couple of thoughts about that. And I love that's where you went. A couple of thoughts that come to mind. Victor Frankel's book, Man Search for Meaning, where he talks about the concentration camps. And he talks about how there was one thing that the guards could never take from them. And that was, and I can't remember exactly how he worded it, but in essence, I decide if I'm how I'm going to accept or treat what is happening to me. And and I don't know, it takes me back to just stuff I've heard, I mean, at church and things like that about how that joy in our life has less to do with the circumstances and everything to do with the focus of our life. And that's hard to hear when you've been dealt some crappy cards when you're in an abusive relationship or you're in a relationship with someone who is in the midst of their addiction. But it's also empowering too.

Justin B: 31:13

Yeah. As I think about this, Steve, it's also empowering when I recognize that if anything's going to change, it has to be within me. There is a play that was written a long time ago where the main character of the play is a woman who's having all sorts of mental issues, things going wrong in her life, and everything like that. And she finally goes to a psycho a psychologist or psychiatrist and says, Doctor, is there something wrong with me? That all of this stuff has just fallen all over me. And the psychologist goes, Yes, there is. And her response, rather than going, I may as well just give up now, was, Thank God. Because if there's something wrong with me, I can change it. But if it's all out there, I can do nothing about it. And I may as well just jump off a cliff right now. I think there's some real power in that acceptance and rigorous honesty that no matter what the situation is, I can address that which is addressable in me. And there can be a change there, which may eventually radiate outward into this small circle of influence that I have.

Steven T: 32:33

I think that I was reading something a few weeks ago, and it's stayed on my mind. This and it's an idea we talk about in the program about the importance of staying right-sized and being right-sized. And I feel like it ties very closely to this acceptance of what is in my life. And whether that's hard things or like one, I don't have I don't have control over everything, so I have to stop trying to control everything. But what I do have control over I can use my energy and bandwidth to get there. And this principle of acceptance, I think this is really challenging because let's be honest, life sucks sometimes. It is hard. And I've heard the argument like, you know, what kind of God would create this kind of world? There is so much suffering and stuff like that. And I think everyone has to confront that and come to their own answer as to what that means and why. And I have my own thoughts about that, because um life isn't fair sometimes, but it's often our biggest challenges and adversities that change us, that are cathartic and that they have a refining impact. Um they reveal who a person is.

Justin B: 34:12

Yeah. Steve, as we're getting closer to wrapping up this conversation on rigorous honesty, do you have any other thoughts that you'd like to bring to the forefront here?

Steven T: 34:25

One thing that caught my attention at the top of page 120 is it talks about that even the smallest details, that we have to look at truthfulness in our motives for doing things, look at thoughts, feelings, emotions, actions. Withholding information is a form of dishonesty. And what I've found is that my own uh difficulties with lack of honesty, the self-deception, dishonesty, if you will. Like it it permeates so many layers. One of the members shares on page 122 talk about uh peeling back dishonest tendencies, and it talks about layers and layers of unhealthy emotions. And what I've found is that in many ways, rigorous honesty is a journey, and it does feel a lot like I'm an ogre Shrek and I'm peeling onions, and like honesty is like I'm peeling layers and getting down to deeper and better, rigorous honesty, more authenticity, and the deeper we go, but I don't think it's a one and done, I don't think it's an all and none thing. I think we start out with just being like, oh crap, I'm an addict, like all of a sudden something shifts, and that's the very outer layer. We start to get down to what are my motives? Are they authentic? Are they honest? Am I being honest? And what's going on in my head while I'm telling you this and this? And that's three, four, five layers deeper. And I don't know that you'll ever arrive. I feel like there's more and more layers that we have to be vigilant and watch for it as we go on our journey, right?

Justin B: 36:09

Yeah, the way I see them is it's a blind spot that I was not aware of previously, and all of a sudden a light is shown in that dark corner that I didn't even know existed. Oh, look, there's Mr. Ugly, who's been dishonest about this, that, or the other, and I was totally unaware of it until that moment. Or just a new weakness, a new character defect that I wasn't aware of. I was blind to. But now that the light's on it, I have the opportunity to acknowledge it, give it to God, pray that it be removed, whatever it may be, and be honest about it. And I think we were talking about the same thing there. Do you have any other thoughts on that though, Steve?

Steven T: 36:52

Yeah, I think the thing that popped into my head as you're describing that was that this just as a critically important reinforcement of why the program is so important, especially following these maintenance steps and taking accountability, looking at ourselves in the mirror, checking our bearings, asking ourselves, am I true? How am I doing or how did I do today? Is my ego starting to show up? And asking ourselves and checking ourselves, taking inventory from time to time. And when we find it, right, we know the pathway, we know what the process is to place it on the altar, ask our higher power to please remove this so that it improves and increases our usefulness to Him and others. I think that God maybe God's just waiting for us to discover these things so that our usefulness can be augmented and increased each time that we do our inventory, right? We look in the mirror and we discover something new and we bring it and he removes it yet again.

Justin B: 37:57

Um, this has been really solid and a good conversation, Steve. I really appreciate you diving deep into rigorous honesty and shining some light on some areas that I hadn't quite seen it before. And it's been helpful to me. I'm sure there are many listening that it will be helpful for them also. Thank you for your time. We always wrap this up with a couple of questions that I have for you as the guest, Steve. What experience, strength, and hope, what words of advice do you have for somebody who is brand new in programmed, just is just now going, I think I might have an issue and I need to address it, and I'm willing finally to step into a 12-step room. What words of advice do you have for them? And then what do you have for somebody who's been in the rooms for 15 years, like you talked about, to motivate them or to help them in their situation?

Steven T: 38:45

Oh, so for the new guy, I would say, welcome. We are so glad you are here. Come back, come all the way in and sit all the way down. Just, and if you need to for the first few weeks or months, just come and listen. Just be a sponge and let it wash over you. And I promise you, it will start to impact you. Even if nothing more that you're doing is just being there and listening. You will find that just the fellowship and interaction that you find, you will find fellow travelers, if you will. They'll you'll listen to their story and you'll be like, oh my goodness, that's me. And so keep coming back and keep listening and come all the way in. And be patient. Right. I've heard it said it takes as long to walk out of the forest as it did to walk in. So don't expect three months of meetings to cure three decades of addiction. Be patient. And the miracle will happen. It does happen, it happens every day. And I am so grateful for the miracles that have happened in my life and to be a witness to watch it happen to others. Man, that just gives me such joy. And it reinforces yet again, this is the life I want. To the one who has been here 15 years, thank you for being here 15 years. Keep coming back, keep telling your story. It just elevates everything about the program. And what I would suggest is, and what I'm feel like I've started to learn recently is that there's something really powerful when we elevate the our the focus of our program above ourselves, and we start looking out, and we start trying to ask, how does this bear on my usefulness to God and to others? And I'm struck by what is step three and step seven prayers, where it talks about take away my difficulties that victory over them might bear witness to those I would help, not to me, to those I would help. Of thy power, thy love, and thy way of life. Step seven says the same thing, right? It says to that we might oh gosh, I can't remember every single defective character that stands in the way of my usefulness to God, to you and to my fellows. When we've elevated our sights to that level where how can I help the man who's still sick? The truth is that God has given you something powerful and special. There's nothing worse than suffering in silence. There's so many people who are drowning and dying right now, and they need to hear your story and mine, and it will be the life preserver that saves them. So they will come to recognize that there's hope. So that would be my thoughts.

Justin B: 41:42

Beautiful. Thank you so much, Steve. I really appreciate your willingness to come on here and discuss rigorous honesty with us. I think it was powerful and helpful. And why don't we close this out like we do in our SAL meetings at the end? We'll just say it together. Keep coming. It works more working.

Introduction: 42:05

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